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**SnowFire** · June 17, 1999, 19:12

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Section III: The Techs Themselves...

Currently existing advances are in quotes.

40) TECH ADVANCES TIED TO GAME FEATURES -- Features such as 'borders' should only be enables once the appropriate tech is discovered. See point 35 for an example.

41) RESOURCE LIMITATION LIFTING TECHS -- In SMAC there were some techs that you needed to research before you could gather more than 2 resources of each type. While an interesting idea, the implementation in SMAC was too limiting. The techs which lifted the limits were too indispensable, and came in too late, often choking off an empire until they could be found. Perhaps there should be a more gentle gradation over the ages? And should Social Engineering continue to play a role?

42) TECHS SHOULD HAVE SOME 'BASIC' BENEFIT -- Each tech should have some effect of the 'basic' parameters of a civ, the kind of things that are likely to be influenced by Social Engineering (e.g. "Trade" should benefit your Economy rating, and "Crop Rotation" should benefit your Growth).

43) AN OPTION FOR A LESS 'MECHANISTIC' WORLDVIEW -- Some people feel that Civ emphasis science and technology, not allowing for the possibility of a civilization that has a less mechanistic worldview, and focuses instead on other pursuits, like philosophy or psychology. Is this workable? Suggestions? Could this have happened, even if it didn't historically?

44) MORE EMPHASIS ON FOOD MAKING TECHS -- Plants cultivation, Farming, Irrigation, Genetic manipulation... see 41 for what purpose they would serve.

45) GREATER EMPHASIS ON THE ARTS -- The tech tree in general focuses on military hardware and hard science, leaving the Arts somewhat unaddressed (this suggestion probably needs to be fleshed out more). More than a few posters question whether this is a good suggestion.

46) MAKE ARTS ADVANCES 'SCORE BOOSTERS' -- Maybe Art and Culture advances should simply be score boosters (like "Future Tech") or one time benefits.

47) TECHNOLOGY SHOULD INCREASE THE EFFECTIVENESS OF ENTERTAINERS -- Certain technologies should enhance the effectiveness of your "entertainer" specialists in the city screen (e.g. Television).
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Section IV: Issues of Technology Cost.

50) HAVE THE NUMBER OF TECH POINTS REQUIRED FOR A TECH BE FIXED INSTEAD OF RELATIVE -- Pottery should not be just as hard to research as Nuclear Fission, even if you are actively researching them both in 1945. Basing the number of research points needed for a particular tech on the number of techs you already possess can lead to ridiculous situations like that, like in CivX. Instead, if using the SMAC chart, make all techs labeled as level one cost 50, level 3's cost 400, level 5 techs cost 1500, etc.

51) DIFFERENT COST FOR 'TRAILBLAZERS' AND 'FOLLOWERS' -- Civs who research a tech already discovered should get a bonus on the cost of researching it, since pioneering new technology is hard, while reproducing an already known advance is easier. The extent of the bonus might be based on civs you have diplomatic contact with, and the extent of that conflict.

52) LESS DETERMINISTIC RESEARCH PROGRESS -- Instead of just "100 Research Points gets you an advance" it should be "There is a number close to 100 Research Points that will give you the technology, here's our rough estimates for when we hit it". This way you can have a rough idea of when you will discover a new technology, but you can never be exactly sure because there is an element of uncertainty, just like science in the real world.

53) TECH SYNERGY -- you can research multiple techs simultaneously, and researching related techs provides synergistic effects, i.e. researching "Physics" and "Calculus" together would get you done faster than researching "Physics" and "Communism", since the results of one field are applicable to the other.

54) RESEARCH SYNERGY THROUGH DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS -- We should get bonuses to our technology development rate if we are on friendly diplomatic terms with other civs researching similar technology because of international science conferences, wider circulation technical journals, access to each other's research, etc.

55) TECH BLEED -- Scientific Advances should be able to "leak out" from high-tech civs to low-tech civs, giving the civ that lacks the technologies the high-tech civ has bonuses on researching it. The rate of leakage should be proportional to the age of the tech (If we drove up to a stone-age tribe they would probably realize the significance of our advanced "wheel" technology before we even got out of the car...) and also proportional to the level of diplomatic relations (if we constantly interact with another society, we are likely to be more familiar with their technology). This is quite similar to point 6.

56) REVERSE ENGINEERING -- Fighting and destroying or capturing enemy units with superior technology should aid in the discovery of that technology with bonuses on the tech cost.

57) BASIC THEORETICAL RESEARCH -- Have some research points devoted to "basic research" that isn't likely to produce any specific advances (i.e. won't give you a specific building or unit or something), but which enhance research in other areas (e.g. research in "Basic Physics" might enhance the speed at which you research "Lasers", "Nuclear Fission", and "Nuclear Fusion", but you could achieve those advances without doing the basic research, just at a higher cost. This would be a tradeoff -- Do I want Fission now, or do I want to invest a little more up front, and be sure of getting all three sooner in the long run, even though I wouldn't get any specific advance until later).

58) MAXIMUM RESEARCH RATE -- Have a maximum rate at which research can be accumulated. No amount of "prodding" will enable your scientists to research faster than some basic human limit (probably limited by communication in the real world). This could also be handled by the "efficiency" theory of tech of number 4 being applied to changes in the tax/science rate over the empire, giving efficiency penalties for straying from the accepted that would slowly decay.

59) MINOR NATION TECH BLEED- If the Major/Minor civilization concept is used, then perhaps there would be a special set of tech bleed rules for Minor civs to keep isolated Minor Nations from advancing far beyond the Stone Age (like the Native Americans) with no tech bleed and to keep Minor Nations in areas surrounded by tough, Major civ enemies have high rates of tech bleed (like Belgium).

60A) LESS DIRECTION SPEEDS RESEARCH- Scientists work better when not forced to work on one specific thing. Thus, letting techs be selected blindly that you don't have to speeds research slightly.

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Section V: Science and it's relationship with Infrastructure and Society.

60) DIFFERENTIATED 'SCIENCE BUILDINGS' -- Have buildings which enhance the scientific output of a city differentiated: You have your choice of a Physics Lab, a Biological Research Hospital, etc., which only add their bonus when the city is contributing to the appropriate kind of research.

61) DIFFERENTIATED 'SCIENCE BUILDINGS' ALTERNATIVE- If the system described in 2 is used, when a new library is built, it can be dedicated to one of the five categories of science. When a university is built, one more discipline can be added. These disciplines get bonuses in research done at the city, in addition to the library and university's normal effect. Then, the bonus in research provided by other buildings (like Nuclear Plant: Normal Effect. Adds +50% to Math & Physics research, if the city has M&P as one of its specialties at the library or university. Research Hospital: Normal Effect, and same as Nuclear Plant except with Biology. Capitol: +100% to Philosophy. Etc.) only occurs if it has a library/university dedicated to that discipline.

62) DIFFERENT BUILDINGS HELP WITH DIFFERENT KINDS OF RESEARCH -- Barracks can conduct military research, temples can conduct religious/philosophical research, all independent of the normal science output (similar to the Biology Lab in SMAC- a set +2 Research/Turn, in a specific category of science. See idea #2).

63) HAVE GOVERNMENT/DIPLOMATIC CHOICES AFFECT TECH DEVELOPMENT -- Would a Fundamentalist government like to research "Genetic Engineering"? Link penalties on the costs of certain techs to social engineering, due to opposition from scientists.

64) TECH PRESERVATION -- If a civ doesn't work to maintain a technology (e.g. by building libraries) they should lose the tech. This can simulate the Dark Ages. Perhaps this can be a randomized global event (Dark Ages descend upon world!), similar to the "Loss of technology research at base x! Build a network node to prevent this!" except, say, every 10% of your population without a library loses you one tech.

65) LOCATION DEPENDENT RESEARCH LABS -- Research is done in labs and universities, and labs and universities have to actually exist somewhere. If you lose an important science city, you shouldn't just not get it's future research, you should be penalized research points, especially if your communications technologies aren't high enough to spread the work done there.

66) FACTION/CIVILIZATION SPECIFIC TECH TREES -- different cultures look at the world in different ways, so it wouldn't be surprising to see that they would follow different paths or discover different technologies in different orders. (concerns over accusations of unfairness and "racism" abound, not to mention game balancing...)

67) FUTURE TECHS ALLOW MINITURIZATION- Future techs currently don't do much. Instead, especially if the categories of research idea is used, have future techs count for a decrease in the cost of all improvements and related items in that category.

68) TECHNOLOGY VICTORY CONDITIONS: This probably shouldn't be in this summary, but there are several ideas on this. One of the classic victory conditions has been technology based- research to a certain level, and then build something. The general expectation has been that you, along with other civilizations willing to participate, build the UNS Unity, the logical predecessor to SMAC. First among proposals is that it cost much, much more than the Ascent to Transcendence in SMAC- it's a cooperative project, so that shouldn't be too much of a problem. 3,000 resources on Chieftain up to 6,000 on King by increments of 1,000 sounds good, and then up to 10,000 on Deity in increments of 2,000 per level. Secondly, there should be more sense of drama and real danger of not winning in the final sequence. To accomplish this, the turmoil that engulfed Earth before the Unity launched should be put in- around the time that the technology to build the Unity is near, revolts and riots start happening more often, as do crazy terrorists burning down your buildings. Conquered nationalities should press even harder for independence, with constant revolts against their conquerors. As the Unity actually starts being built, things should get even worse, with paramilitary organizations like the Spartans and the Christian States of America springing up in revolting cities and leading them against you and the other remaining civs. More Minor Nations should go on terroristic and conquering streaks as well. The idea is for all the remaining major civs to band together against the chaos and finish the Unity before they perish. If you wait too long, eventually nuclear missiles (or even worse, nanotechnology) starts getting stolen from you and the rebels start launching nukes left and right. Once this happens, and enough nukes have been launched to have a nuclear winter, you still do not lose. You simply get to keep playing on the nuclear wasteland that is Earth. All of your Modern Age and some of your Industrial Age technology is lost, though it can be researched again at a much reduced cost since there are still books and stuff on the topic. By that point, the rebels stop attacking you, and you and your remaining 2 cities can rebuild and try and retake your old cities that long ago revolted against you, and bring civilization back to the point where you can try and build the Unity again (and go through another end-game rebels sequence).
Another idea along this line is that if you don't want to get the co-operative UNS Unity win, you can win solo by transcending on Earth, except instead of becoming part of Chiron's fungus, your civilization uploads itself into computers.
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Section VI: Game Options set at the Beginning of the Game.

70) DIFFERENT TECH DIFFICULTY SETTINGS- There should be 2 or 3 difficulty levels of research systems, say "Novice Research," "Standard Research," and "Advanced Research." It's easier for beginners, and more realistic and challenging for veterans.

73) BLIND TECH -- People seem to either love or hate the blind research from SMAC.

74) BLIND 'HISTORICAL' TECH -- research follow Blind Tech model up until Industrialization, after which the player can use the Directed model, emulating the superior control and direction that people have over scientific discovery with modern methods.

75) BLIND 'HISTORICAL' TECH ALTERNATIVE -- Have a 'ratio' which controls how many techs you get to pick. When you first start, all of your tech choices are blind. Then after some time, you get to pick every 4th tech. Then every 3rd tech, etc., so you start with no control but eventually get complete control. Perhaps the changes from every 4th to every 3rd to every other be controlled by specific advances? (The
University: May pick every other tech from now on?)

76) DOWNLOADING TECHS -- Some would like it if Firaxis periodically expands the tech tree by posted new techs on the website to incorporate into the game (Could this be done without ruining play balance?)
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Section VII: Things NOT to do.

80) HAVE OVERBROAD TECHS -- For example, "Industrialization" encompasses many things (technical, social, and economic), and should not be lumped into a single tech. This is assuming the current CivX system (under point 5's suggestion, it would be the exact opposite- you'd want broad techs with many facets).

81) SENSIBLE TECH/ADVANCE CORRELATION -- Certain advances were linked to techs that really didn't make sense, e.g. "Labor Union" and "Mechanized Infantry".

82) SCIENCE CITY IMPROVEMENTS MORE IMPORTANT FOR SCIENCE THAN ECONOMIC BUILDINGS -- Apparently in CtP, buildings which boost your economic output are more worthwhile for your research progress than Libraries and such. That's bad.

83) SPACING OF TECHS IN THE TREE -- Make sure that the techs are judiciously placed in the tree so we don't have too few in one era and too many in another. Try to keep it balanced (no jumps from Knights to Tanks, like in CivI).

84) AN UNHELPFUL SCIENCE ADVISOR- Traditionally, he's usually tossed a coin and told you to research that technology. A better advisor would be nice. The beta-testers can probably help you with that.

85) HAVE SILLY FUTURISTIC TECHS- CtP had some of the most ridiculous ideas of what the future was like around. SMAC was much better, but still had some silly bits. Whatever you do, no female cyborgs with swords conducting futuristic combat (Plasmatica) or "War Walkers." Instead, we'd like AI's, nanorobots, and neurohacking. See the tech list below.
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[This message has been edited by SnowFire (edited July 01, 1999).]

**SnowFire** · June 17, 1999, 19:13

Section VIII: Actual Techs Suggested

Many of these techs are narrow enough that they would only be palatable as "minor techs" as described in the system in point 5. Also note that I mention some CivX, but not mentioning one doesn't mean it shouldn't go in- they're just offered as extras, to put the rest in context. These are supposed to be mainly the new ideas. In any case, grouped by rough categories (which might be the "fields" described under point 5):

Arts Techs so far:
Music - A dead end tech that adds +50% to the effectiveness of entertainers. So an entertainer gains an early boost of +100% with the discover of music and construction of a market place. Since music has been around since the beginning of civilization, many dispute the need to actually research it. This suggestion has been criticized strongly by many, since music has existed since the Stone Age.

History

Literature

Rhetoric

Sculpture

Psychology

Mathematics Techs:
Algebra- The lowest level math discovered.

Trigonometry

Calculus- Vital for physics research.

And computers, a subcategory of Math:
Programming -- the art/science of making computers do what you want.

Systems Analysis -- (what exactly would this do that can be modeled on a civ-wide scale?)

Computing Machine -- A mechanical or electrical device that demonstrates that arithmetic and logical tasks can be done by machines. Examples would be an adding machine or a punch-card sorter. This would be a pre-req for...

Stored Program Computer -- A device which maintains its instruction sequence in a dynamic storage medium (e.g. the DRAM in the computer you're using right now). Allows much more flexibility than a direct input computing machine.

The Transistor- The transistor is the basis for all modern computers. Integrated Circuits (ICs) use transistors to accomplish most of their functions. The Transistor is what made the "Information Age" possible without large vacuum tubes still ruling computing.

Vacuum Tubes - Among other things, can be used to build digital logic circuits. Vacuum Tubes were the basis for the first electronic computers. (This is an excellent candidate for some of the prereq ideas -- Transistors and Vacuum Tubes are mostly unrelated technologies that both allow computers, but the Transistor has other benefits. So the prereq for "Computers" might be "Computing Machine AND Vacuum Tubes OR Computing Machine AND Transistors", but you need "Transistor AND Computers" for Microprocessors.)

Semiconductors- Makes those microchips possible.

High Level Programming Languages -- Give the user an easier way to program computers.

Seed AI- A "baby" artificial intelligence that can learn and develop itself.

Engineering techs:
Simple Machines -Another very basic tech that would be discovered soon into Engineering research.

Road Building- perhaps not something you start out immediately with.

Masonry- As in CivX.

Ballistics

Architecture- Is this the same as "Construction?"

Canal-Building

Paper- Not really engineering, but vital to scholarly study.

Printing Press- Same as Paper.

Plumbing- A Pre-req to Sanitation, probably.

Clockwork

Hydraulics

Gunnery- early muskets, ar quebuses. The Death of the Knights.

Fortifications- Another more specific minor tech to add.

Electric Light -- This would probably be a minor tech in addition to electricity that improves the living standard of homes, is my guess.

Interchangeable parts- perhaps better than "machine tools?"

Ceramics- Usable in everything from shells to rockets.

Internal Combustion Engine -- A pre-req to "Automobile," perhaps.

Aerodynamics

Satellites- Let's see the whole map revealed, not just the enemy cities (like in CivI)!

Physics Techs so Far:

Electromagnetism- One important branch of classical physics.

Thermodynamics - Another one.

Optics- Yet another one.

Relativity - Perhaps the most important concept in modern physics. Good pre-req for nuclear power.

Quantum Theory

Nuclear Theory- as in CivX.

And Astronomy Techs, a subcategory of Physics:
Astrology- Is this the same as mysticism, or considered something developed after mysticism to allow astronomy?

Astrolabe

Orbital Mechanics- Very high level astronomy, traveling into space.

Chemistry Techs:
Periodic Table -- An important advance in chemistry. Realizing the "order" of chemical elements allowed discovery of new ones and prediction of their properties. Aided understanding of underlying theory of chemistry.

Industrial Chemistry -- A minor tech after chemistry that gives a slight bonus to factories.

Physical Chemistry

Organic Chemistry

Biology Techs:

Genetics/Inheritance Theory- Gregor Mendel style understanding of inheritance

Evolution- Perhaps it would also cause slightly less effective churches as a side effect.

DNA- enhanced genetic theory.

Genetic Engineering- As in CivX.

Botany

The Sub-category of Medicinal Techs:
Lens Grinding- A pre-req to Germ Theory?

Anatomy

Germ Theory- Diseases aren't caused by demons getting into your body after you sneeze.

Circulation of Blood- We don't keep on creating the stuff, it's the same stuff recycled over and over.

Surgery- cutting people up to make them healthy. In early years, mostly limited to amputations, etc

Antiseptics- Insures they don't die after the surgery's done, probably more important than Surgery itself (IMHO).

Physiology

Immunization

Antibiotics

X-Rays -Perhaps a physics tech as well?

Cryogenics- Perhaps increasing the effect of hospitals?

And Agricultural Techs:
Olive, Silk, and Tea Domestication- Early trade goods.

Artificial Fertilizers- Improve food production at the expense of money and industrial pollution?

Herbal Remedies- These have been around since the Stone Age. Not sure if you should need to research these.

Cash Crops -- farm goods which are grown primarily for export because they can command a high price, not because of their local food value. Coffee, cotton, and tobacco might be examples. They might allow you to turn excess food into money.

Crop Rotation -- Important agricultural concept. Improves farm productivity.

Mechanical Farming

Seed Drill

Cotton gin

Artificial selection

Economics Techs:
Currency- As in CivX.

Credit

Capital Markets -Using the minor nations idea, perhaps this could allow ruthless trade policies and imperialist economies.

Keynesian Economics -- The notion that government fiscal (i.e. taxes and spending) policy should be used to limit the effects of the business cycle: low spending during boom years, high spending during recession/depression.

Mercantilism- Running Imperialist Economies. Works great if the "minor nation" idea from other threads is included.

Venture Capitalism

Mercenary Warfare- Not sure if this should need to be researched, but buying armies is always nice...

Multinational Corporation

Advertisement

Tourism

Metallurgical Techs:
Copper Smelting- A very very early tech.

(plus all the standard ones, like Bronze Working, Iron Working...)

Everything else suggested:
Paper
Standing Army
Bureaucracy
Potter's Wheel
Vertical Loom
the plow (early)/ Mouldboard plow (late, with cast iron advance)
Animal Domestication
Mass Communication
Submersibles
Wheelbarrow
Greek Fire
Chemical Warfare
international law
Deism
Diesel engine
epidemiology
heliocentrism
Enviornmentalism subcategory: hydrogeology, exotoxicology, bioremedition, extinction prevention, contaminated land reclamation
Oceanography
Geology
logic
photography
Telegraph
Pulse Communication
Concrete
Fireworks
lightbulbs
wooden barrel
hot air balloons
tanning
the bayonet
scientific method
telecommunications
textiles
Painting
Weaving
Horticulture
distillation
Brewing
drafting
Gearworks
Urbanization
Regulation
The Pump
Calendar
the chimney/fireplace
Aristocracy
Civilian Watch
Civilian Rights
Veteran's services
Social Reform
Women's Movement
Legalized Prostitution
Prohibition
Gun Control
Revolution
Training
Code of Conduct
Targeting
Military Algorithm
Mobilization
Martial Arts
Geography
Total War
Environmental Ethics
Cuisine
Entrepenurialism
Globalization
Humanism
Empiricism
Nuclear Disarmament
Art of War
Rationalization
The Enlightenment
Money Economy
Nuclear Deterrence
Nuclear Warfighting
Nuclear Defense

Futuristic Techs, possibly realistic:
Cloning- A growth bonus that perhaps also increases chance of revolts from angry religious people. No bonus in fundamentalist societies.

Organic industry- The ultimate in clean industries, it produces remarkably little pollution.

Arcologies- dramatically increases population limit, allows deep sea colonies, reduces pollution, and crowded people more prone to riot.

Deep core mining- This can be a city improvment or a terrain improvement that's a primitive thermal borehole, depending on how you look at it.

Orbital construction- pretty self-explanatory.

Fuel cells- Dramatic power possiblities here. Perhaps a bonus to ships and spaceships.

Commercial spacefaring- make $$$ for space exploration.

Lasers- Heck, we have them now, but for a usable SDI.

Wakeways- "trails" of fuel pods in space that primitive ramjets use to quickly speed from one planet to another

Artificial intelligence- While this is supposed to be discovered in SMAC, if you let the Seed AI grow long enough you may end up with an AI anyway. Be armed with an excuse for why this wasn't taken to Alpha Centauri if you do put this very realistic tech in.

Spaceport- More of an improvement than a tech, it allows, well the futuristic version of an airport.

Terraforming- IF we actually colonize the Moon, Mars in CivIII, this will be quite useful.

Eugenics- Similar to cloning, Hitler would have loved to have had eugenics. Growth and happiness bonus in facist SE's; cannot be researched by fundamentalist societies.

Metallic foam- Useful for ultralightweight construction.

Neural interface/neurohacking- So that Zakharov can be hooked up, and the intelligence of children can be improved in certain areas through surgery.

Nanotechnology- Vital for ultra-high speed computer, terraforming, and makes a fanastic destroy-the-world machine. Spies can plant nanorobots in societies to turn people's brains and bodies into goo and that ravage entire cities and lands.

Laser induced fusion- Powerful lasers, and a prerequsite to-

Fusion drive- What makes the Unity go, aside from the solar panels it also carries. A vital tech to allow the UNS Unity Wonder.

Antimatter/antimatter containment- Even in primitive form, allows extra power to go to space colonies and increases the speed of the Unity.

Hydroponics- Growing plants by putting them in nutrient-spiked water tanks. Useful out in space and on the moon.

Microgee agriculture- Another good way of growing stuff in space.

Nanomedicine- Another fine use of those nanorobots, good for cell repair and removing blockages.

Personality constructs- Perhaps with AI's, they can simulate human personalities as well, aside from their normal AI-self.

Mass drivers- Basically a gun in space that, er, drives mass into other things at high speeds.

Twin ion engine- A bad method for short range travel, good for intermediate distance; takes a long time to build up to speed, but useful for driving items across interplanetary distances with little fuel.

Futuristic Techs and realism questionable:
Warp drive- Considering that the Unity doesn't use one, this certainly can't be developed in CivIII's era and have a reasonable plot- not to mention the little problem of the physics. Actually, bigger than little.

Psychohistory- Not likely. Asimov was wrong, Large societies are much harder to predict than small ones.

Robopsychology- I personally doubt this will be a problem, but who knows?

Zero point energy- Energy from nowhere. A more plausible alternative may be a "space vacuum" where atoms floating out in space are sucked up and turned into energy.

Xenobiology (exobiology)- There may be microbes on Mars, and learning about them would be quite helpful.

ICE- "Intrusion Countermeasures Electronics," used to protect your mind, and thus your spies, from detection? Or just mental conditioning, which has been around for ages?

Eptification- A form of re-education.

Elite conscription- Recruiting the smartest and most educated people for the army/navy.

Phaser/Turbolaser- For those that like Star Trek and Star Wars.

Artificial gravity (antigravity)- It'd be really useful if we had it, though it may well be impossible. Discovered in SMAC, late game anyway.

Universal translator- Perhaps an AI that is devoted to learning all languages and translating them?

Scrith- What Larry Niven's Ringworld is built with. No, I don't know what it is either.

Hyperatomic motivator- A good weapon, making your enemies atoms jump around. Problem: Heisenberg's uncertainly principle.

Liquid metal (mimetic polyalloy)- A la T1000. Might actually be possible with nanorobots. Would create very strong tanks, planes, etc.

Positronic matrix- Uses decay of positrons to emulate a human brain. A different way of creating an AI. Rather hard to control.

Spindizzy generator- A way of using anti-gravity to put cities in flight with a different name.

Planckscale machines- Nanotechnology taken to the extreme, where work as done at lengths of down to 1x10^-30 m.

The ekumen- A form of interplanetary government.

Matter replication- Discovered in SMAC, so it's probably out.

Kinetic Weapons & Inertia Nullification- Highly mobile units with de-stabilizing weapons that send enemies spiraling out of control. Problem: Inertial Damping was a proposed tech for SMAC.

Parts of this are horribly wrong and need correcting? Great! Post now and tell us what your idea is to make this list better, which is our only goal here. Or go over to <a href-"http://www.firaxis.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000027.html">Firaxis</a> and do the exact same thing.

-------------
SnowFire, Technology Thread-Manager.

[This message has been edited by SnowFire (edited June 25, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by SnowFire (edited July 17, 1999).]

**Ecce Homo** · June 17, 1999, 19:32

Martial Arts as a Tech!

Some ancient techs like Copper Working and Horse Domestication should not be researched in the common way. Instead they would be achieved as a citizen has worked long enough on a square with the concerned special resource - in this case Copper or Horses.

**Aharon Ben Rav** · June 18, 1999, 10:35

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet. I know everyone laughed at Contraception as a wonder in CTP, but that's partly because it isn't really a wonder. It's a technology. And I definitely think Contraception makes sense as a technology in Civ III. It has led to more personal freedoms for women and the rise of women in the workplace. I'm not sure what it would lead to as far as new units or buildings, but it makes sense as a tech.

**Flavor Dave** · June 19, 1999, 00:17

OK, let's say we add blood circulation as a tech. What I don't see is folks proposing the effect that would have. (Has this been clipped from the summary?) If not, then why add blood circulation? Folks, think about the purpose of the tech path--it isn't to give a realistic picture of technological progress, but to make available new units or improvements.

Do you guys say about chess, sure, it's a great game, but it's not realistic that a queen can move further than a king? Anyway, it seems to me that most of the suggestions made don't have an eye toward the game as a game.

I like the idea of gateway techs, or some other way to make sure some civ that doesn't have the railroad steals advanced flight. I don't like the way that Civ2 prevents you from following a hyper-technological path. If you try this, the AI will find ways to close the gap. So, the only strategy that makes sense in the modern era is to turn down the science and put that into other stuff, since you won't really benefit from the science.

Anything that adds random chance is, IMO, a bad idea. It would mess up MP, and mess up the various challenges, like the one city challenge.

Arts would be fun to add, you could have some kind of art tech, which would increase happiness early. Two benefits--1, it would open up the possibility of going republic without Oracle, and before MC and JSB. Right now, that's not really feasible, at deity anyway. I like anything that opens up different strategies. "Representational art" would, combined with a library, make one unhappy citizen content.

2nd, you could have a really cool movie, or perhaps have the disc store about 40 pieces of art, and when you discover this, it would randomly show a picture of one of them. Good fun, and a way to decrease Eurocentrism.

Serendipitous advances--yeah, it would be nice if you could add "discover tech" to the possibilities at goody huts;-)

I think that having different fields of research, with slider bars, would be a good way to get around alot of the issues raised here. If you're landlocked, you might get pretty late in the game, and not have navigation yet. Suddenly, you need galleons. Just move the slider bar on "water techs" to like 80%, and quickly go from seafaring to magnetism. Or maybe you've been very isolated, when suddenly you're not. You've got to discover gunpowder and conscription and tactics, and you've got to do it NOW.

The guys at Firaxis would have to be careful to keep this from disrupting the balance.

There was also the idea of having an "overarching" tech, that would facilitate research in a particular area. For example, you could research "modern warfare," with gunpowder as a prereq. You'd lose some time in researching it, but you'd make it up with a lower cost to research conscription, machine tools, tactics, etc. You'd have this edge for as long as you stayed in the tech path. Once you deviate to research refrigeration or whatever, you lose it.

The idea would be to allow the player the choice of ignoring an area of research, and still give him/her a chance to catch up.

But I like the idea of multiple areas of research better. Easier to conceive, and less open to manipulation.

**Flavor Dave** · June 19, 1999, 00:42

If we want to add all of these "realistic" techs, we'd have to do a couple of things. 1st, you've got to lower the beaker cost of each tech. 2nd, you've got to be very careful not to overemphasize any area--military, tax, food, science, happiness, whatever.

I suggest we group them, call them minor techs, and give them the property of "adds 10% per city" (assuming we stick with the metropolitan-area model.) But at the same time, since we're going to be boosting everything by "X" %, we need to "tame" the cities some other ways. Thoughts on that later? Anyway, here goes, trying to use techs suggested in the summary.

For example, food techs. Ancient has cultivation, renaissance has crop rotation, industrial has the combine (farm machines), and modern has plant genetics. In my suggested implementation, a civ with all 4 of these would turn a city with 20 "wheats" into 28. That's too much. Don't know how to fix it.

Anyway, science techs. Ancient, Confucianism. Medieval, movable type (not printing press). Industrial, public schools. Modern, Internet.

Money techs. Ancient, accounting. Medieval, the clock. Industrial, mercantilism. Modern, venture capitalists.

Military. Would reduce cost of each unit by 10%. For ancient units, you'd need to have discovered ballistics. From musketeers to tactics, ??? After tactics, the military academy.

Happy (gives you 10% of your trade revenue as luxuries, free. With each gateway tech, the old one becomes obsolete. Or something. Anyway, the practical effect would be that in your bigger older cities, you'd turn one red to blue.) Ancient, advanced music. Medieval, ?? Industrial, psychology. Modern, mass media.

**Knight_Errant** · June 19, 1999, 13:48

Many good ideas. I wonder if any of them will be implemented.

Two points. Antimatter containment and ion engines are listed as questionable reality. The Ion engin is being tested in southern New Mexico. Antimatter containment works, but there is presently no commercial use for it that can't be done any other way.

Both points are minor.

**Knight_Errant** · June 19, 1999, 13:57

Before being labeled a kook. Here are two sites (of many) relenquishing information about antimatter containment and ion engines.

Ion :-
http://exosci.com/news/103.html

Antimatter :-
http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/1998-08-25/antimatter.html

**Diodorus Sicilus** · June 20, 1999, 00:58

Here are my comments on the list of 'miscellaneous techs' in Snowfire's post/summary.
Flavor: since you set me back on the track of keeping an eye on Game Effects of tech, I obviously agree with some of your general comments on the tech list.
My own proposed solution for the massive tech tree desired by some (several?many?) folks out there is to divide the techs into two heirarchies: Advances and Applications. Advances would ber similar to the Overarching Techs someone suggested, and divided into four main categories (idea borrowed unashamedly from SMAC): Trade, Culture, Growth Military. Under these would be Applications in the categories of:
Arts & Letters
Physical Sciences
Natural Resources
Ground Warfare
Seafaring
Flight
Economics
Politics

None of this is set in stone even in my swamp of a mind, but I've been fiddling with a tech tree incorporating this Advances & Apps concept, and I hope to have it posted (once only!) by the end of the weekend...

Miscellaneous Techs and Comments
Paper
Could be divided into Paper as a basic Advance and Paper Money, an Application that allows more Tax Income to the Government (player)
Standing Army
This is really a result of Political and Cultural and Tech advances: a civ that is rich enough to pay full-time soldiers, or Militaristic enough to make all its citizens into soldiers
Bureaucracy
This is one of the Advances in CtP that was a definite improvement over CivII, but didn’t go far enough. This should also affect the relative efficiency of the government in taxing and running things, and allow certain types of centralized government: Absolute Monarchy, Totalitarian, widespread Republic/Democratic regimes and such are impossible without bureaucrats and a bureaucratic organization.
Oceanography
As a prerequisite to what? We still aren’t Mining the ocean to any extent. Maybe this could be a prerequisite for finding oil deposits off shore and building OffShore Platform Improvements to tap them.
Geology
Again, unless it’s a prerequisite to better exploiting Natural Resources, what’s the point?
Geography
See above
Potter's Wheel
Pottery was a pre-4000BC invention, but the Potter’s Wheel marked the start of Pottery as a Trade Good, an economic material instead of a household one.
Painting
Artistic Painting dates back to 50,000+BC, and protective whitewash/coatings on houses is pretty old: does this refer to a particular style of secular, Happiness-inducing painting? Then the problem is that there are a huge number of painting schools and styles from all ages back to 4000BC, so where do you put it in the Tech Tree?
Weaving
Weaving is too general: there are a lot of specific Technical advances that led to commercial cloth asa Trade Good, or better clothing for Happier population.
The Loom
More specifically, I suggest the Vertical Loom, dating back to 1500BC, which allowed the first commercial production of cloth as a Trade Good
cement/concrete
Concrete is the one to use: it could be the Tech that allows construction of all-weather, Roman-style roads. Reinforced Concrete, a 19th century (1867AD) invention, could be an Application that leads to Improved Fortifications or Modern Superhighways (with Automobile)
Veteranical services
I assume that this means Veterinarian Services or Sciences, better treatment of commercial animals, but people have been taking as good care as they could of valuable animals for as long as they’ve domesticated them. Veteran’s Services, on the other hand, like the Veteran’s Hospitals and Invalides (Old Soldier’s Home) (started in France, 17th century AD) could raise the morale of your army.
Fireworks
This could be an intermediate step between Gunpowder and Musket/Aquebus, but militarily they were insignificant. Maybe as a Happiness (celebration) mechanism?
lightbulbs
The electric lightbulb was invented simltaneously on two different continents. Wha led to electric lighting, with increased efficiency/production (night work) and happiness (home life after dark) would be the electric power system of which the bulb was only a small part
wooden barrel
I suggested this one for two reasons: it makes a good Trade Increase (+10% trade income, for instance) Advance because of decreased wastage in transit, and because this is a definite Tech Advance invented by barbarians! It was developed in Germany in 100BC
hot air balloons
To what purpose? About the only thing they were used for was air reconnaissance - getting a look at the enemy stack, so to speak, and then only in a static situation, in seiges at Paris (1870) and Yorktown (1862).
tanning
Tanning and curing of hides is a pre-4000BC human technique, so even if we needed it, it would be a starting tech for most of the civs in the game.
Enviornmentalism subcategory: hydrogeology, exotoxicology,
bioremedition, extinction prevention, contaminated land reclamation
These look like “enabling techs” for the Pollution Cleanup abilities of PW or Engineers, so lump 'em altogether
Animal Domestication
Another ‘tech’ that predates the game: dogs, cattle & oxen, pigs, sheep, goats, donkeys were all domesticated and bred by humans long before 4000BC. Domestication of useful animals after 4000BC should be linked to the specific animal: horse, elephant, camel as Terrain icons: if they're nearby, you'll domesticate 'em but PLEASE no more arctic civilizations with elephants unless you gimme a Woolly Mammoth icon!
Mass Communication
Too general. Public, circulated newspapers started in 1609, mass radio in 1906-1911, mass television in 1940s. You could tie effects to any of them, or have a progressively-increasing set of effects for all three.
Submersibles
What’s the matter with Submarine? We can divide it, if we want, into Submarine, Missile Submarine, Attack Submarine, Nucelar Submarine, etc
Wheelbarrow
An incremental Tech, actually an Application of Mechanics and Wheel. It allows more efficiency in all kinds of construction, but it’s not a critical device by any means
Greek Fire
If they insist on putting in Fire Triremes or Fire Ships, we might as well use a Tech that has a specific inventor and date: Kallinikos in 673 AD
Chemical Warfare
A developmentor Application of Haber’s process for producing artificial nitrates, which should be an Advance since it led to both better munitions (ammunition) production and artificial fertilizers: the start of the modern industrial farming
Semiconductors
Pulse Communication
These are both examples of a trend to try to subdivide modern results into all the enabling techs - I’m guilty of this, too, but I’m trying to curb it, because how do you decide where to stop? Were semiconductors necessary for later developments and applications, or Integrated Circuits? What does Pulse Communication, or Digital Communication, mean in game terms?
Microbotics (little robots), Astrobotics (space robots?), Hydrobotics (water
robots?).
About all we’ve gotten to so far is Manufacturing Robotics. Microbotics would be better indicated as Nanotechnology, a probable Future Tech, while the other two are Applications of Robotic technologies to specific environments.
Brewing
Brewing may have been the first use of grains by humans: in primitive form it predates 4000BC, at any rate.
Agricultural Investment
If by this you mean Capital-Intensive Farming, that’s a product of Farming for Profit, and could be dated back to the Olive Groves of Greece (olive oil= major cash crop) or the latifundia of Rome - industrial farming on a grand scale. In other words, it's a result of commercial/technical advances, not an advance itself.
deism
We’ve had some kinds of Gods in every Human society going back to the Old Stone Age, at least. Where does this fit in?
Diesel engine
The only place this could be specific would be as the enabling Tech for Submarine, and even there the electric battery was more important for the non-nuclear boats to travel underwater.
distillation
A product of the Alchemists, by the way, so possibly an Application of Alchemy that leads to medicines (happiness improvements) as well as Distilled Liquor, a Trade Good
drafting
This looks like a small part of Architecture, rather than a separate Tech
epidemiology
Possible, but I think Pasteur's work on Germ Theory (with a Microbiology modern Application?) is the basic Advance in this field.
fuel cells
This I like, but it's almost a Future Tech - we're just starting to get some amazing results in Fuel Cell technology, but it hasn't been applied to any extent yet.
heliocentrism
As a prerequisite to a specific religion?
horticulture
“The art of garden cultivation” says my dictionary: another occupation for the leisure class, for most of history.
cuisine
Cuisine is cooking. If you mean a Gourmand or Gourmet culture, this would be a product of having a leisure class or aristocracy and a large food surplus. What’s the effect in game terms, though?
international law
Atrocities have been recognized since ancient times, although what constitutes an atrocity has changed considerably. This might be the Humanistic or Cultural Advance that sets things like recognized Borders at sea (Legal Offshore Limits).
logic
An Enabling Tech for higher mathematics?
photography
But, what does it do in the game?
the plow (early)/ Mouldboard plow (late, with cast iron advance)
At first I thought the plow was a pre-4000BC device: found out it doesn’t appear in the record until 3800-2500BC: should certainly plus up your basic agriculture, and the (heavy iron) mouldboard plow allowed much heavier soils to be cultivated: adds more effective farmland, maybe even makes “terraforming” of forests into plains/farms possible
the bayonet
About all this did was make the pike obsolete as an adjunct to the musket. Since the game currently makes the pike obsolete as soon as the musketeer comes along, it’s either too much detail or unnecessary.
scientific method
Archimedes is sometimes called the “Father of Experimental Science”, or you could tie it to Roger Bacon’s writings 1580-1620 AD on experimental science. This could be an Advance that pluses up your basic research.
telecommunications
Meaning what? It includes telegraph, telephone, radio, comm satellites, and a bunch of enabling inventions for all of them. This would be better as a series of separate techs with maybe an Improvement of Telecommunications System for a city or civ
telegraph
The first reliable fast long-distance communication: should have a big effect on civ cohesion, perhaps reduce the effective distance from the capital to a city with a Telegraph Office?
textiles
See Vertical Loom or Loom above. The big jump in textiles or cloth as a Trade Good was when the Factory System was introduced in Flanders in 11th century AD
Gearworks
Strato’s book ‘Mechanics’ (320BC) describes the gearwheel, a navigation instrument from Rhodes in87BC had Differential Gearing, but I suggest that gears be ‘lumped’ together with other Mechanical Advantage tools under the heading Mechanics - Strato's book also described pulley blocks, gear trains, and other mechanical advantage machinery
Training
If we mean Military Training, that’s an old concept. If we mean systematic training of military units, then it goes together with a chain of command and discipline, and I think should be tied to building a place (City Improvement) where all those things happen: Drill Field, Barracks, Armory, etc.
Code of Conduct
This was a specific development by the US military to govern soldiers’ behavior when captured by the enemy. I don’t see a legitimate game effect from this
Targeting
Target Acquisition in the modern Artillery covers a lot of different techs and developments, the most important of which are probably Ground Radar, aerial surveillance, and Enhanced (infrared) Photography. Since the most modern artillery pieces are practically worthless without some kind of Target Acquisition, why not combine the two, and save a place on the Tech Tree?
Military Algorithm
There are lots of algorithms with military applications, but the effects come from applying them along with other things: computers, search patterns, etc.
Mobilization
The concept of calling out the troops dates to the beginning of troops. I’d rather see a Cultural or Political development of Militia in which you are allowed to send most of the army back into the economy, store the weapons, and Call Up the troops as needed, with suitable economic penalties for doing so.
Urbanization
This is the effect of numerous social and technological trends, not an Advance
Regulation
This is a result of Bureaucracy and certain types of government, also not an Advance
Revolution
What government in its right mind researches Revolution? This should be the result of a government screwing up, not researchable
The Pump
Which one? Early irrigation used various waterwheel or treadmill 'pumps', deep mining was dependant on the development of steam pumps, the Artificial Heart is a pump... The one to use, I think, is the development of the stationary steam pumps in the early 18th century, which allows Deep (shaft) Mines as a Tile Improvement.
Calendar
Lots of different calendars have been developed, and all of them started as a requirement for good agriculture: timing planting and harvesting, etc. Effect would be better food production from agriculture
the chimney/fireplace
Compared to the smokehole, the first chimneys made life more comfortable, but only incrementally. The forced-draft chimney later made coal burning for home heating practicable, so that might be an option for a minor tech, since it would increase the value of coal as a Trade Good.
Civilian Watch
This might be better tied to the concept of City Government - as opposed to the city as a nation, or city-state, which is one of the first governments in the game, the idea that a separate set of officials would be concerned only with the welfare of a city under a larger government is fairly new: late middle ages, I think. This could be an Advance or Application of a philosophy that increases happiness in a city: call it something like City Charter or City Government. It would include fire and safety watches, locally-produced laws, etc.
Civilian Rights
Meaning? Civilians have had 'rights' since Hammurabi's Law Code. The Church tried to regulate treatment of (Christian) civilians in war during the middle ages: what is meant by this, and what does it do in the game?
Social Reform
‘Way too general. Reforms take specific forms and have specific results.
Women's Movement
We already have Women's Suffrage in the game. Is this in addition to or instead of that, and with what effects?
Legalized Prostitution
Having lived in countries/states that have this, I don’t see any difference it makes to that country/state other than to bring in the occasional curious/horny tourist
Prohibition
Gun Control
These both are results of, or reactions to, social movements. Gun Control is only required if you didn’t have it from the beginning, as all European and Oriental states did, while Prohibition is attempted only by those governments with no idea of the limits of governing.
Aristocracy
A Social Development, not an Advance. Definitely needed in some form, since it was virtually universal and the way you change or get rid of aristocratic privilege defines your modern cultural/social/political form of civilization.
Total War
And how does this differ from or modify how the average gamer wages war?
Environmental Ethics
This in itself might be an Advance, but the application of it comes in specific Improvements (Wildlife or Nature Park, Recycling, Conservation, etc)
Entrepenurialism
‘Entrepreneurialism’ is a long-winded way of saying Individual Economics. One school of history dates it back to the beginning of Coinage (550BC), with which an individual could amass his own fortune. This would make it a Social Result of a Tech Advance.
Globalization
A result of other techs, like global communications’ techs, not a sepaate Advance
Humanism
Empiricism
These are both Philosophical ‘developments’: how do you define their effects in game terms?
Nuclear Disarmament
This is a definite social/political movement, but while it affects Happiness ratings and possibly foments Revolt against governments that don’t disarm, it hasn’t stopped any government that I know of from researching nuclear weapons if that government thought it had the need. Also, the Disarmament crowd seems to be largely a western European/US group: Citizens of countries with large unfriendly neighbors and no nuclear weapons do not seem to be affected by the Disarmament trend at all!
Art of War
Too general. This covers dozens of technical and tactical developments spread over 1000s of years.
Rationalization
The Enlightenment
Both elements of the same thing, the Secularization of Thought and Philosophy in European civilization. Game effects on religion would be to reduce its effects, possibly temporarily reduce happiness, but allow secularization of government (no more 'divine right of kings')
Money Economy
A result of the invention of Coinage. One place where the original CivII Advance is still best: specific, with results that can be included in game terms.
Nuclear Deterrence
Nuclear Warfighting
Nuclear Defense
The first works only on the mind of the opponent: if he’s another gamer, good luck! The second means exactly what? I was in the nuclear warfighting business professionally for a lot of years, and it boils down to Fire the Nukes, Kiss Your A** Goodbye. The third is only marginally possible, despite all the rhetoric wasted on it for the past 50 years. Anything at Ground Zero is Gone. Anyting close to Ground Zero is Useless. Anything Downwind is going to be Useless very shortly, incuding people, animals, plants, insects, and bacteria. Chernobyl showed that cleaning up after even a single nuclear incident is, with current technology, practically impossible.
Nuclear Deterrence in game terms can be included: if you fire a certain number of nukes in the game (number not precise, so you can’t exactly predict what’s safe), the game crashes, taking all records of play and scores with it. This would be an effective deterrent to most gamers, and pretty accurately reflects the probable results of a general nuclear war: Start Over at the Beginning.

**EnochF** · June 20, 1999, 04:51

Dio: For the most part, I like the way you think. But I'm not about to be intimidated by a barrage of knowledge.

Some responses:
Let's start with photography. This is a key invention because without it, radioactivity would likely never have been discovered. Remember that pitchblende samples were first found to emit "mystery rays" when it was found they could develop a photographic plate in a darkened chamber. Photography also allowed more detailed studies of motion, as in the series of photographs depicting a running horse, proving that all of a horse's feet do leave the ground while it runs. Not to mention its galvanizing effect on modern astronomy, prompting the discovery of Pluto and Edwin Hubble's discovery of an expanding universe. And also some incidental proofs of relativity, as photographs show the distortion of light in the sun's gravity well.

Let's see. Oh, yes, the pump. In my second list of suggestions I changed this to hydraulics to be more in line with the ancient status of the science. The force pump, a pair of cylinders whose pistons are driven by a horizontal bar on a fulcrum, may in fact date as far back as Ctesibius in 270 B.C. At Alexandria, he discovered the compressibility of air. Not to mention the legend of Heron, who may have discovered a primitive form of the steam engine in the first century A.D. As far as hydraulics goes, it would include machines such as Archimedes' screw, which Archimedes may or may not have invented, depending on which history you read.

I don't agree that heliocentrism is necessarily tied in with religion. Ancient scientists observing the heavens naturally came to the conclusion that the sun and moon and stars traveled around the Earth, and the only real problem was the planets, which traveled in odd patterns. But Ptolemy's mathematical construct, the "epicycle," explained these motions well enough to satisfy ancient astronomers (that the planets traveled on "circles upon circles"). Eventually, as we all know, the Catholic church went and accepted Aristotle and preached it as the truth. This had an enormous effect on history, but whether religion was tied up in geocentrism or not, heliocentrism would have been a modern advance. Scientists like Aristarchus had suggested heliocentrism, of course, but they had no proof, and astronomical observations were not accurate enough to judge one way or the other. Eventually, it was to be discovered that epicycles could not accurately explain the motion of the planets, but that would only come with new, sophisticated telescopes. And even then, heliocentrism remained in disfavor because it didn't explain the motion of the planets perfectly, any more than epicycles did. That was because the planets don't move in circles around the sun, but ellipses, with the sun at one focus. So, the progression from geocentrism to heliocentrism is a natural one without the interference of religion.

Let's see what else. Oh, yeah. Horticulture is a kind of precursor to agriculture. As such, it would probably be another pre-game advance available to all civilizations. I only mention it because in anthropological circles it's accepted that cultures that have not made the "agricultural leap" still practice horticulture. There is no irrigation, no plowing, and no fertilizer. There is also no crop rotation, though there is often a kind of "garden rotation," due to the fact that the gardens do not yield harvests on a regular basis. Just a suggestion. Modern horticulture is of course a hobby and nothing more, because agriculture has long since replaced it.

Anyway, for what it's worth, I agree with about nine out of every ten comments you made.

**NotLikeTea** · June 20, 1999, 09:50

I saw a mention of Geology as being a popentially useless tech, and I'd like to disagree.

Suppose that a vaguely realistic map is used, where earthquakes and volcanoes occur in specific regions. Geology could allow you to know risks of natural disasters automatically for all locations (as another map/overlay?), or implement it with an explorer somehow (I want to see the explorer given a bigger role in the late game).

I also like the idea of it giving a resource bonus to all mines, and perhaps even giving the chance to find new shield terrain bonuses.

**Diodorus Sicilus** · June 20, 1999, 21:22

EnochF:
I don't intend to intimidate, it's just the way I talk, sorry 'bout that...
Hydraulics makes a lot more sense than pump, sorry I missed your second, updated posting.
Photography as an Enabling Advance for other science advances also makes more sense, especially if the game includes some kind of "Arts & Letters" cultural advances for Happiness improvements. In that case Photography would also be a brand new artform, with possible Happiness advantages - certainly the Box Brownie "camera for the masses" at the end of the 19th century had a big effect on US & European family cohesion.
Horticulture is just a bad title. Agriculture is still listed in the anthy texts I've read as a pre-4000BC development, in that grains and legumes were cultivated. The advances to basic agriculture can be indicated as separate advances - I'm a firm believer in incremental advantages, so the Animal-Drawn Plow, Crop Rotation, Improved Grains, etc could add 10, 20, 25, 33, 50% or whatever increases to your food output from agriculture.
Sounds like you intend Heliocentricism as a precursor or replacement for the old game definition of Astronomy, which it (the game) tends to connect with the Brahe-Copernicus-Kepler-Galileo observations of planetary motion. I think it becomes a matter of nomenclature again: how many people are going to know what we're talking about with Heliocentricism without explanation?
NotLikeTea:
A good argument for Geology. I've always wanted more Natural Disasters in the game, and as an advance Geology would give the gamer some chance of relief from the cycle of earthquake/tsunami/volcanic random events. I also like the idea of it being tied to revealing natural resources or terrain icons: I've never understood why or how a bronze-age civilization would care where petroleum deposits are - let's go find them when the time comes, as they have to today.
One little niggling note, though, just to intimidate one more time: the study of the earth's crust, which is related to the exploration for oil and other undergrond resources, is Geomorphology - had a roommate in college majoring in it years ago.
Geology is a better title for the game, though: CivIII as a College Catalog won't sell any extra games to anyone!

**EnochF** · June 21, 1999, 01:12

Dio: Didn't mean to sound adversarial. I just got through reading one of Harel's posts on another thread, so I was a little grumpy...

Anyway: "Sounds like you intend Heliocentricism as a precursor or replacement for the old game definition of Astronomy." I can't vouch for what I sounded like, but I didn't intend Heliocentrism as a replacement for anything. I would list it as an advance coming after Astronomy and Optics but before Theory of Gravity.

As for Agriculture... y'know, I've never thought of it like this before, but agriculture is essentially required for the development of cities. Therefore, the very concept of setting up a city and then researching agriculture is completely backwards. I think I like your incremental advantages system more.

**Icedan** · June 21, 1999, 19:17

I wasnt bothered to read everyones post in this topic, and I don't have much interest in this topic either, however I was lying down outside in the sun, and I had an idea for discovering technologies.

To me, picking a technology from a list is not exactly realistic.

Instead, I suggest, we have the advisors tell the scientists what problems we have.
For example, we have a civilization of 100,000 people, and there is a food shortage problem. Then an advisor will tell you we have a food shortage problem, and you're scientists will suggest a solution to the problem, therefore, discovering a new form of hunting, eventually leading to building a granery, then a marketplace, etc.

This way, when the military advisor says our soldiers are dying in battle, or he may complain that we need a new way of attacking cities, scientists will then work on say a catapult to attack the city, or to help stop the soldiers dying in battle, the scientists invent sheilds, thus leading to Phalanx, etc.

I don't know how this could be worked out really, but I really think a new form of discovering is required, picking one from a list is getting old now and isnt exactly correct in any civilization.

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