TECHNOLOGY(v1.6)- hosted by SnowFire

[EnochF]

I'd take issue with the names he's come up with for advances. I mean, "Paddlewheel Steam Boats" just doesn't pack the same wallop as "Seafaring," does it? I'd be pretty underwhelmed if I read, "Our scientists have discovered the secrets of Paddlewheel Steam Boats!"

When deciding what tech advances to include, I consider the historical significance as well as the practical game effects, and also the aesthetics of it. I'll shy away from advances like "modern agriculture" and "advanced flight." Modern as opposed to what? Advanced as opposed to what? I'll also shy away from "advances" that had practical effects which lasted less than a single decade. That's why I'd rather not see things like "vacuum tubes." Vacuum tubes were almost immediately replaced with transistors; why bother? "Computers" is enough.

Anyhoo, if you've got Wonders, kindly place them in the Wonders thread. It's no good piling all your ideas in the Technology section, as SnowFire would no doubt agree.

[Daniel Bistman]

hi, im new here, but i have an idea for 33)ARMS RACES.

When you discover a weapons tecnology, there should be "Investments on Military research"
that improve those units on different levels, for example: Musketeers didn't become Regiments from one day to another, so there are..
Musketeers (level 1)
Musketeers (level 2) etc.
then you discover "Leva" and you have
Regiments (level 1)

Musketeers are not the same in the colonist conquests in America than in Napoleonic Wars. Regiments are not the same in American Civil War than in first World War.
The armies should be easily upgradeable (between levels, and between unists type).
I DONT WANNA SEE A CAVALRY NEAR A TANK!!

[Harel]

Harel's post on technology

Ok, I DID say i would do this, so here goes.
First off, I still belive summarizing a single, coherent model is the way to go. However, I won't touch that issue. I think we turn it into a squabble over 1.5, a pointless beakery.
Me, SnowFire, and NotLikeTea offered a new model with either relay on several major technologys with related minor techs or 3 big catagories. I won't take a stand on THAT issue now, also. I would use the major-tech system only beacause it's easier for me to track the technologys i am writing and for you to read them.
I tried to build toghter a useful tech tree, with doesn't over-blow itself, even thought i like the idea of a big tech tree.
For example, EnochF, rightfully said that you have to have compass before magnetism, because people knew how to use compasses even before then understood how they work. Very true, however since thats what CIV II magnetism defines, we can change the name to compass but having complete tech on just understanding the concept is pointless.

I removed doubled techs: see The loom, textiles AND weaving, things which are too-narrow as the bayonet, etc. I also discarded culture suggestions such as helincenterism. Those were effects cause by specific-regional and politcal sitution. We are talking about things in general. Also, I dropped ideas such as: nuclear disarmment, as it defitently doesn't quality at a tech. I also cut off basical techs, such as the fire, forgating, etc, as they don't need to be learned.

I would like you, if i may, to treat this offer of tech as standard: i tried to include most good ideas both from everyone here and old CIV. The list here encompose everything in an easy-to-read post.
I would like ideas on: what to add, what to drop, what is too-narrow or too-wide. I have no doubt this post if far from perfect: but i though we needed an orderly summary ( as SnowFire only included the SUGGESTED techs, and not everything alltoghter ). I probaly did miss a few, cause i didn't went over civ ii list. oh well.

The sub-catagorizing is a bit blurry, at best. If you have ideas how to properly divide them ( but not into too-big catagories ), please tell me.
I tried not to include too futuristic techs, as it's still debated.

So, here goes. The list is by related major techs. The techs also state the suggested imporvement.
For those wandering, i give food-making, pottery and such a trade bonus beacause they are things which are commonly traded ( signs of different cultures ).

Animals

Taming ( Dog scouts, +1 scout range, war elphents )
Horseback riding ( Cavalry, chariot )
Domesticating ( Allow cattle farm )
Veteranical services ( double animals healing rate )
Genetic enhancement ( 50% cost,for animal units, +1 extra to speed )

Farming

Fielding ( Allow to build fields, +1 food )
Irrigation ( Allow water tuneels, +1 food for deserts )
Crop rotating ( +10% for food production )
Fertelzaing ( -10% pollutin, +10% food )
Cultivating ( +0.1% to food every turn ( FET ), up to 10 )
Hybrids ( additional +0.1 FET, max +15 )
Genetic botony ( additional +0.1 FET, max +20 )
( all 3 techs can give up to one more +0.3% every turn, up to a max of +45% )
Industrial farming ( +50% to cost of fields, +50% to output )
Hydrophonics ( allow hydro sat, orbital food farms )

Medicne

Evoultion ( -25% to templers, +10% to science if religoun is Athaism )
Gene theory ( +10% to growth )
X-ray photographing ( +10% to health, requires radioactiviy )
Anatomy ( allow hospitels )
Surgery ( +25% to regaining health in infantry units )
Germotology ( allow santirical hostpitels ( twice effective ) )
Antibiotics ( -50% of plague )
DNA splicing ( +10% health )
Genetic engineering ( may cause un-rest, +25% to growth )

Biology

Botony ( allow explorer units? )
Bio-engineering ( allow bio weapons )
Bio computing ( allow bio-like computers )
Synathic cells ( +50% to waste disposel site effectivness )
Organic industry ( +10% to factories, -10% pollution )

Theortical mathematics

Mathematics ( Catapult )
Astronomy ( Allow +1 to ship speed )
Ballistics ( Cross-bow, ballista )
Atomic theory
Differnal calcuss ( +10% science )
Theory of gravity )
Theory of realtivy ( allow space-faring )
Quantum physics ( +10% science )
Quantum mathamatics ( allow quantum-computer labs, big science bonus )

Useful physics

Physics
Aeronotics ( Glider units )
Therodynamics ( flying ballons )
Aerodyanmics ( Planes )
Optics
Elctromagnetism ( Allow electronics )
Magntic fields ( Allow super-colliders, acts like labs )
Radio-activiy ( Nukes, with realtivity )
Radiation study ( H-bombs )
Nuclear power ( nuclear power-planets, nuclear subs )
Radio ( +10% to trade )
Multi-length spectrum ( +1 sight to cities, allow modern telescopes, radar station )
Hydrology ( +1 to sub speed, better torpedos, allow dams power-plant )
Meteralugy ( +10% to farming, allow wind-power-plants )

Chemistry

Fireworks ( allow fireworks factory, increase happiness )
Ceramics ( better armor )
Rocket fuel ( allow IBCM with rocketry, allow space-travel )
Carbon-alloys ( very strong armor )
Explosives ( allow you to build roads pass mountians and hills )
Plastic explosives ( better weapons, artilery )
Gunpowder ( Muskets, Cannons )
Brewing ( Allow pubs, happiness buildings )
Industrial chemistry ( factories are +25% productive, +50% more pollution )
Chemical war-fare ( allow chemical weapons )
Waste disposel ( allow waste disposel systems )
Cement ( +10% to building )
Periodic table ( allow radioactiviy, +10% to science )
Plastic ( requires Petrolium, allow space-travel )
Semi-conductors ( allow micro-elctronics )
Super-conductors ( allow mono-rail )

Elctronics

Electricity
Direct-current ( power plants )
Pulse communction ( +10% to trade )
Commerical elctronics ( +10% to happiness and productivy )
The transistor ( allow microelctronics )
Refigiration ( increase food output by +10% )
Computer ( allow space-flight and labs, +10% to science )
Digital network ( allow internet interface, gives a bonus to science and trade )
Microelectronics ( increase computer-related bonus by +25% )
Optic-fibers ( +25% to internet bonus )

Space fligth

Rocketry ( requires petroliam, allow V-2 )
Missiles ( Bazooka, missile cruisers, etc. )
1. Space travel ( allow apollo program )
2. Orbital space-flight ( allow satellites ( defence, com ))
3. Advanced space consructiom ( allow orbital habitats ( factory, resintial ) )
4. Space-faring ( allow space-travel, ship and inter-planetry movement )
( by order of time, 1-4. 2+3: current time, 4: futuristic. possible fifth step needed for inter-steller? )

Tactics

Orginized military ( Allow better legions, allow barracks )
Geurrila ( allow geurrila war-fare and units )
Intelligence ( +10% to spies )
Code of conduct ( gives +10% to morale )
Guidenss systems ( allow infra-red tracking )
Targeting ( Increase accuracy )
Military algorithem ( better sabotage )
Scripting ( allow mass-requrtiment )
Stealth ( allow stealth planes )

Socio-culture

Alphabet ( allow more tech )
Writing
Time celender ( increase effiency by +10% )
Rulership
Code of law ( -10% unrest )
Urbanzation ( increase city max size by 2 )
Industralzing ( allow factories )
Civilain watch ( +10% to internal security )
Civilian rights ( like labor union, +10% to happiness )
Program algorithems ( +25% to spying )
Code of chivalry ( allow knights and Feudalism )
Artifical intelligence
Mass-media ( allow TV broadcasting buildings )

Exploring

Map-making ( allow ships )
Sea-faring ( less chance of losing ships in ocean, better ships )
Navigation ( deep-ocean traveling, cancel drowing of ships )
Geology ( +10% to mine tiles )
Global mapping ( requires Sat, increase movement of all by +10% )

Homanism

Lietreture
High eduction ( universties/collage )
Paiting ( +10% to perefomers )
Causine ( or food-making art... everyone forgot about this one +10% to trade )
Arts ( allow artists, preformers )
Playing ( allow theatre )
Philosphopy ( +10% to happiness )
Antropolgy ( +25% to outer realtions )
Scientifcal method ( Allow scientists )
Psycology ( +10% to happiness )

Construction

The wheel ( chariots )
Tool-works ( +10% to building )
Paving ( allow roads )
Bridge buildings ( requires paving and crane, not the too-advanced tech of civ II. allows you to build roads over rivers, +25% to paving road speeds )
Plumbing ( allow plubming in city, +10% to health, reduce diesese )
Water-engineering ( allow aquadects )
Engineering ( +10% to building )
Mass-size construcing ( allow sky-scrapers )
Arcology ( allow building arcologies )
Architecture ( allow to build wonders )
Ship building ( Frigate, Cog, Man-o-war )
Deep-see construcing ( allow deep-sea cities )
Underground building ( allow underground cables and trains )
Deep-core mining ( +50% to cost of mine, +25% to output )
Weaving ( Increase trade )
Controled furnace ( better armor and swords )
Metallreguy ( better muskets )
Fortefuction ( allow castles and walls )
Nano industry ( +10% to health and factories )
Machinary ( requires steam engine, +10% to factories )
Robotics ( requires microelctronics, +10% to factories )

Invetions

Vacuum tubes ( allow LASER and computers )
Compass ( increase +1 ship speed )
Automatic feeder ( improve muskets to rifles )
Steam-engines ( train and steam-boats )
Combustible engine ( allow mass-transit, cars, trucks, tanks )
Solar-panels ( for sats and power supply )
Deep-water crafts ( subs and torpedos )
Crane ( construction +10% )
Enhancing lens ( optics, diffenail math. allow observatories and Germotoly )
Paper-press ( libaries cost 50% )
LASERS ( allow more techs and +10% to factories )
Delta-wing ( +1 to plane speed )
Jets engine ( jet fighters )
Clock-work ( increase effiency +10%, allow clocks in city )

Materials ( found ones, made ones are in Chemistry )

Timber cutting ( bow )
Masonry ( allow better housing, +10% to housing option? )
Bronze making ( phalanx )
Iron smelting ( Legion )
Coal ( allow steam-engines )
Pottery ( +10% to trade )
Paper/Papirous ( Libaries )
Combustible gas ( allow lighting posts )
Noble gases ( allow lasers )
Glass-blowing ( +10% to trade )
Rubber ( better cannons )
Petrolium ( allow combunstible engine )

Rulership

Totalarship ( allow dictorship )
Beacurcy ( gives +10% to efffiency )
Constition ( -10% unrest in democracy/republic )
Diplomacy ( +10% to spying and +25% to outer-relations )
Monarchy ( allow monarchy and emperorship )
Civilian freedom ( allow republic and democracy )

Religoun

Ceremonial burrial ( allow temples )
Mystisim
Astrology ( increase worhsip places +10% )
Religoun ( allow church )
Theocracy ( allow thecrtical govrement )
Athaism ( a form of a "religoun", gives a bonus to science, not happiness )
Synthasim ( a "new-age" belif, make all temples effective again )
( i wont put monothiesm cause i think thats discrmanting. is he belief of one god really is more EVOLVED then a "paganic" one? )

Economics

Currency ( allow clerks in city )
Trade ( allow caravans, market-place )
Banking ( +10% to economy, allow banks )
Marketing ( Free market model )
Income tax ( +10% to taxs )
Communism ( allow communical model )
Mass transpotion ( requires mass-transit, paving, allow highways )
Coporations ( allow free coporations... don't know, maybe internal powers in your empire? )
Politcal economy ( +10% to economy )
Economics ( 20th tech, +10% economy, planned model )
Mass production ( requires machinary, +50% to factories cost, +25% to output )
Recycling ( allow recyling centers )

[EnochF]

Interesting... unfortunately, several of those words simply don't exist in the English language...

[Harel]

Indeed EnochF, i am not a naitive english speaker. While I belive the level of my english is fine, i find the grammer and spelling annoying. And since I don't have a spell checker at hand, some things get lost. However, I know this is hard for you, try to raise above it and read what i meant, not what you see.

[Diodorus Sicilus]

Dave, I'm going to try to make this quick, and I apologize beforehand to everyone else in this Thread, because not all of this will pertain to Technology:
My two biggest gripes with CivII (and they don't stop me from playing it, but they do keep me griping) can be summed up as:
1. Not enough variety in Play
2. Not enough Historical problems for the gamer.
The variety in play covers a lot of things. I found after the first 50+ games, that they started falling into a distinct pattern. Regardless of who or what Civ I played as, the only major variations in how I expanded, researched, explored, or built were provided by the relative starting positions and the map (and while we're upgrading AIs, let's give a jolt or two to the Map Editor, PLEASE). After a certain point in each game, game play was pretty much standardized: certain Advances were always important, cetain units were always useful, certain Wonders, etc.
For variety, I want civilizations to actually be different: for their starting positions to influence the kinds of Tech thay can research and how well - and maybe their cultures to influence development as well, but this is a real can of worms to put in the game - too, too many value judgements involved. I want a Tech Tree with several routes to the same end, and Civilizations that rise and fall instead of plodding steadily across 6000 years to victory. I want Victory Conditions that reward more than just Conquest and Space Travel.
And I want historical problems: religions that undermine as well as enhance my civ and government: government types that force me to share control but give advantages for doing it. More variety in diplomacy: barbarians that trade or fight, civs that come along during the game from developed barbarians.
Where we agree:
Trade should be started and startable much earlier: Hisorically, by Turn 15-20 in the game there was extensive trade clear across Europe in Tin, Copper, Amber, etc.
The ground war is emphasized over the naval or air, but I think the reason is that the game maps don't have the space that the real world has. Play on a map that is 75% water, and you approach Earth's configuration: navies and naval technology gets real important. But if you set a CivII/CtP game map to 75% water, you end up with an Island game almost every time, and there is little or no ground war at all. A partial solution might be to speed up naval movement, which would certainly be historical, but I'm not certain that a complete answer is possible without vastly increasing map size, and that has other important effects on the game...
AI has gotten a little better since CivII came out, but there is vast room for improvement, in the AI's military, diplomatic, trade, and all other aspects. I'm not programmer enough to know what is possible (or doable within money and time constraints) but surely'better' is possible.

Again. sorry for leaving the Tech thread here, but you deserve an answer...

Now lemme get back to massaging the Tech into Advances, Applications, and Non-Tech Advances, with some notes as to which can be made particular to terrain, culture, or location. This will take a while...

[Flavor Dave]

Okay, Diodorus, it appears we aren't far apart at all in what we'd like to see in Civ3. In particular, I agree about 90% with your #1. But then, I wonder about alot of your suggestions. Not alot of them seem to attack the problems you see. I've played some AofE, and you seem to be thinking along those lines, small technology advances being important, a game covering a far shorter period of time. But as long as Civ covers 6000 years, you're gonna have to leave out alot of your advances. I mean, how much value, really, is an enhanced archer??? In my games, none, b/c in no time I've got knights, then musketeers, etc.

As far as variety in gameplay goes, at deity, if you don't get Hanging Gardens, then your terrain determines your strategy, a great deal. And even with HG, I find that you have to react to your surroundings/situation, cuz at deity, you can't beat the AI to everything.

Here's an idea--maps should have more plains, and less grasslands. BUT--you could add a tech like, organized hunting, which would increase by one the food yield from forests and/or hills and mountains (to make up for it.) This would allow you to set up your civ in very rough terrain. It would make isolationism a better option.

Also, you could have domestication to add one food to plains (in addition to another for irrigation). This should help the AI, which is kinda stupid in the way it "improves" the land. Also, I think this would help with scenarios set in rough terrain.

How about this for a victory condition--have more people and more money than all other nations combined, and no AI civ has a tech that you don't have. You'd then have to find a "3rd way" between militarism and advancement.

OK, I'm off thread here. That last suggestion should go to RADICAL.

[BigBopper]

WOW you are some long winded people

Anyways a couple of notes on real world techs in development (I watch discovery channel too much)

1. Areosol propeled munitions. combined with automated loading of warheads (and several types of guided warheads) an artillery system in development can fire three shells at diffrent tragectories and have them land on a target area at the same time. Basically it's the same principle as the potato gun taken to the Nth degree. I assume this technology will eventually replace solid propellants. propelents

2. Laser based propulsion. More theoretical, but early experiments have been successful, A vehicle "rides" a powerful laser beam fired from the ground. I don't understand it completely but apparently as the laser hits the vehicle it super-heats the air under the ship creating thrust. ( I'm sure there is information galore out on the web) This opens up all kinds of possibilities for cheap access to space, intercontinental travel etc.
BigBopper

[SnowFire]

This is basically a post to let you know that I'm still around and have been closely following the discussion- merely considering what to say. A few things:

Diodorus: First off, you double posted your original summary. Can you edit the double off (just say "Double post! Sorry!")?

Secondly, I've read what you've written in other threads as well, and think you have some fantastic ideas. I like 'em alot. Unfortunately, I really doubt they'll ever see the light of day. Spending until 500 BC wandering around as barbarians is a cool and realistic idea, but not everyone's cup of tea.

Still, your technology lists and explanations are interesting. I'll try and condense them into the next summary, along with EnochF & Harel's.

Meowser, NotLikeTea: I think that's a cool idea. However, it would be solved by workshop special abilities (remember trained in SMAC?), and it's not really a technology topic.

[BigBopper]

About #43 on the summary list, the civ with a less mechanistic view.

A civ could (can?) only pursue the arts, philosophy etc, when not threatened. Those that ignored their army fell to the first military force that came along. History is full of examples of "Advanced" civs that fell to armys with no where near the civil advancement of the conquered civ. (the conquering armies may have had better military techniques and or technologies)

Scott.
"peace through superior firepower"

[Ecce Homo]

TECHS TIED TO RESOURCES:
Some early techs could maybe be tied to special resources found on the map. Say, to learn Horse Domestication/Copper Working, one citizen must work on a terrain square with Horses/Copper on for a couple of turns. This is more realistic than the present science concept.

[NotLikeTea]

Our national sceince program on the radio was discussing archaeology, and this got me thinking

What if, at later stages in the game (when did archaeology become popular?) explorers could find remains of old cities.

Consider a greek city, that is wiped out. The city is lost, but is still represented on the map, as are the tile improvements. After time, these dissapear. Later, an explorer enters a tile that once possesed an improvement. "You notice strange ruins." Poking around a bit more, you discover the ruined city, and perhaps learn something from it (an old tech never discovered, perhaps, or a general boost to research).

I dunno about this myself.. would be interesting, and a reason to use explorers after most of the world is mapped, but how often are cities wiped out entirely in a game?

This brings up another interesting point.. what about scientist UNITS? When used in different locations, would help different aspects of technology (on a boat, naval tech? On the land, argiculture?) Assasinations would be more important...

[Diodorus Sicilus]

Harel’s summation is another form of something I’ve been working on off and on since the unfortunate Double Post last week (I should remember to go back and look at my own posts to catch that stuff, sorry everybody). Instead of having a single list of Categories, why not divide the Tech Tree into Advances and Applications?
Advances would fall under four main categories (borrowed shamelessly from SMAC’s Tech Tree design):
Growth
Culture
Military
Trade
These correspond to the Civ Games’ Areas of Interest: Grow your Empire, Build your cities, Conquer and Defend, and set up and run an economy to do it all with. You could select the emphasis to put on researching these categories, but most of the really useful stuff would be Applications of the advances, which I have tentatively divided into the following categories:
Arts & Letters
Physical Sciences
Natural Resources
Ground Warfare
Seafaring
Flight (becoming Space Flight after a certain point)
Economics
Politics

You could also set priorities for researching/developing the Applications, OR the emphasis might be influenced or set by the type of civilization/government/culture you are playing. For example, a Civ that has mostly port/seacoast cities would get a plus when researching in the Seafaring category.
To use Harel’s first two categories: Animals and Farming as examples, here is how most of the advances given would break down into Advances and Applications:

Domestication
(Growth Advance)
Starting Tech: No Prerequisites
Agriculture
(Growth Advance)
Possible Starting Tech:No Prerequisites
Irrigation
(Natural Resources Application)
Application of: Agriculture
Requires: Agriculture, Writing, (a river)
Effects: turns desert tiles into Farmland
Natural Fertilizer
(Natural Resources Application)
Application of: Domestication
Requires: Domestication., Agriculture
Effects: +25% agriculture production
War Elephant
(Ground Combat Application)
Application of: Domestication
Requires: Domestication +
(Terrain icon: Elephant)
Effects: War Elephant unit
Horseback Riding
(Ground Combat Application)
Application of: Domestication
Requires: Domestication +
(Terrain icon: Horse)
Effects: Light Horseman unit
Light Chariot
(Ground Combat Application)
Application of: Wheel
Requires: Wheel, Metal-Working
Effects: Light Chariot unit
Plow
(Natural Resources Application)
Application of: Metal-Working
Requires: Metal-Working, Domestication,
Agriculture
Effects: +33% agricultural production
Crop Rotation
(Natural Resources Application)
Application of: Agriculture
Requires: Agriculture, Calendar
Effects: +25% agriculture production
Archimedes’ Screw
(Physical Sciences Application)
Application of: Screw
Requires: Irrigation, Screw
Effects: +10% irrigation effects
Breast Strap Harness
(Economics Application)
Application of: Light Chariot
Requires: Light Chariot, Plow
Effects: +10% Trade, +10% Agriculture
Mouldboard Plow
(Natural Resources Application)
Application of: Cast Iron
Requires: Cast Iron, Plow
Effects: +33% agriculture, more farmable
land tiles
Improved Grains
(Natural Resources Application)
Application of: Agriculture
Requires: Agriculture, Moldboard Plow
Effects: +33% agriculture production

The % numbers are approximations, and would undoubtably have to be playtested before they were finalized. Requirements in () are terrain or location requirements for the advance or application.
I haven’t taken my model all the way up to the 19th century yet, but Haber’s Artificial Nitrates would be a Physical Sciences Application of Agriculture that allowed Artificial Fertilizers, while various farm machinery (Internal Combustion and Steam Engines: Physical Sciences Applications of earlier techs) would lead to the modern Industrial Farms. Genetic Enhancement I would break down, since animals were being bred for particular characteristics before 4000BC, but it wasn’t until the 18th-19th century that Modern Genetics started to develop, and most of the advances with major effects date to the 19th and 20th centuries: hybrid grains, agricultural animals with specifically improved economic features, etc.
This is by no means a finished system, but I think that by dividing the categories into two heirarchies we can have both the “blind” research some folks have posted about, and a multiplied Tech Tree without having the number of categories get too extravagant to control.
Hopefully, by the end of the week I'll have a sample list breaking down Advances and Applications at least up to the 19th century - and this time, just post it once...

[yin26]

-=*MOVING THREAD UP*=-

[SnowFire]

Same here, bumping this to the top.