BORDERS (ver1.0): Hosted by Lancer

[Harel]

Bell, i posted an idea in diplomacy about several levels of inter-national connections. In non-aggersion, entering the enemy terratory will automaticly declare war.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I don't think entering enemy territory should be a declaration of war, I think being spotted in enemy territory should be a declaration of war. Otherwise there's no sneak attacks. Which brings me back to the ever observant armed border guards . . .

[Harel]

You can't enter a nation with a legion and NOT be notticed.
Entering an enemy space with a normal unit will cause war.
Like the commercial says, for sneak attack use sneak units
think spies, garrila, CtP like stupid unit... but a normal army unit will cause a declartion of war.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Not in modern times, communication is too easy, but in the days of yore you could easily move in and silence the local populace without alerting the country's military or leadership. As late as the mid 1800's you could land a large army and keep it from being officially noticed until it attacked. Maybe if there was a random chance every turn you're across the border that your unit would be discovered.

[This message has been edited by Bell (edited May 25, 1999).]

[CormacMacArt]

OK, you've convinced me on the ARMED BORDER concept, but since I just started playing the SMAC demo, how do they decide who gets a single square in SMAC?

[Isle]

As for fixed borders, they shouldnt just be available in modern time.

Here's little story:
In 1020, the danish and swedish king, rode along the border between their two countries and signed a treaty agreeing to respect eachothers borders, to mark the border they set stone markers all along the way. During the centuries there was much war between the two countries, they were even united in a single kingdom at a time, but whenever either country repeled the others forces, the border was reestablished.
In the end, the swedish conquered the contested piece of land(So that the new border was a waterbody), but the border remainded a state border internally in sweden, and still is today.

I think fixed borders should be available at anytime either as a diplomatic option, or even better: Something automatic between two countries with a piece treaty. Land snatching would then be limited to countries at war, instead of the pain in the a.. it is in SMAC.

[This message has been edited by Isle (edited May 26, 1999).]

[Blue Waldo]

I think borders should be anouther bargining tool, in the diplomat screen you should be able to move the boards around and offer the new arangement to the other civ. ie you move the border so you have more land (maybe inclunding a city or two) in exchange for a peace treay. that is how it is done in real life like in the Spanish-American war, spain gave up land to the US in exchange for peace.

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[HolyWarrior]

While SMAC had an excellent idea in being able to buy and trade cities, it should be taken further and allow buying, selling, and trading individual pieces of land.

This would allow simulation of:
The Louisiana Purchase--France sells off a ton of land for money.
The Gadsden Purchase--U.S. buys land from Mexico to build a railroad.
The Polish corridor--Poland gains access to the Baltic, cutting Prussia off from the rest of Germany after WWI.
The Alaska Purchase--U.S. buys land from Russia on the cheap.

[Rashind]

Off-topic, I know, but will someone please explain the whole -=BUMP=- thing to me?

[NotLikeTea]

An idle thought...

Could we have borders at all before discovering mapmaking? Perhaps, but it would make it a lot easier to discuss borders in diplomatic relations...

[Mo]

I think that borders should also extend to air units. That means that you aren't allowed to fly through another civs territory without an alliance or permission from them.

[Cartagia the Great]

I do like this idea of boarders, and many of the ideas which have been put ofrth. I would just like to jump on the band wagon and say that I beleive there should be the ability to buy land and cities from other civilizations, and sell it as well. Let us say that you have two cities over on a continent which has two growing powers on it. You have good relations with them, but you suddenly go to war with your next door neighbor, and worry about these other civilizations looking to steal your colonies. You should be able to go to one of them, and sell those cities, in exchange for money. hell, maybe even set up an auction of sort for the cities.

Likewise you should be able to negotiate a boarder. If you have gone to war, and stolen 5 cities from ,say, the Greeks, but these cities are nto the ones you truelly wish, you should be able to enter into diplomatic talks and set new boarders, these might, or might not, include the cities you took. If they do not ,those cities would be returned to the Greeks, but the new ones would be added to you.

This may, or may not, deal with boarders, but I feel that you should also be able to re-extablish a nation. If you are allied to the Celts, but the French and taking city after city of theirs until they do nto exist, but you send in units and retake the cities, you should be able to re-extablish that civilization with how everm any cities you see fit. this would allow you to create buffer zomes between civilizations, which is always a nice thing.

Also being with boarders, perhapse it should be able to enter a partrition. This would be a temporary alliance between two or more nations which would be used to divide up another civilization. Under the agreement each would set up boarders in this new civ, of what they wish to take. Then there woudl be a temporary allaince between the nations as each went to grab these cities, and fight for them. Once time ran out, or the civilization had been destroyed, the boarders you fixed in the past would come into affect.

Just a few ideas, what do you all think of them?

[reddawg151]

Here's a basic outline of ideas:

1.Borders should be marked by cities, forts, or air fields.
2.You should be told when any unit crosses your border.
3.You should be able to have a border guard, like the Canadian Mounties, that can act as spies on passing units, and help you see a few blocks past your border.
4.Borders should be locked from change between nations at peace or allied unless a specific diplomatin deal is made.
5.Borders should start from Day 1. Even ancient civilizations knew when they were crossing into foreing territory.
6. The borders should be visible by outlines in your nation's color, and should be able to be turned off/on like the map grid.

What do ya think?

[Chowlett]

About sea borders. Should ALL bases be allowed to have sea borders? An inland base/city could not, at least in olden times, control the sea, since it would not be able to get any ships out in case of aggression. So, how about, until the advent of advanced diplomatic relations, only coastal cities could control sea borders. If you want to be REALLY strict, you could restrict it further - in Ancient times, only coastal bases with a port could countrol sea borders.

[ember]

Borders should vary in extent with technology.
Ancient 3 squares land 1 sea.
Renasance 5 land 2 sea.
Modern 7 land 3 sea.

Disputed teritory is any square that could equally well be included in each civ, unless ceded or taken, then becomes normal. Could also include all territory adjacent to a border and not in a city radius.

Disputed territory can be takn by military units (like a pillage command, an act of war)

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"Any technology, sufficiently advanced,
is indistinguishable from magic"
-Arthur C. Clark