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**Theben** · June 14, 1999, 16:02

Regarding world's greatest:

A while back I suggested 'mini'-wonders. The basic idea was you'd pay x2 cost for the city structure. The structure would have the same benefits as normal, plus you'd be directed to a MOO2-like interface (in the racial attributes screen) where you could pick a couple of minor extra effects for the "wonder". Some abilities would not be available to every building type. Now other civs could also build mini-wonders of the same building type, but no 2 mini-wonders of the same type can have the same effects. So eventually you'd run out of possible types, but still have many to choose from. These city structures could still be destroyed, but it would be harder to destroy them than normal structures.

Allow construction of regular wonders too, but under the same restrictions (and only before the game starts). Also allow the losers in a race for a wonder to build a mini-wonder or to upgrade an existing building to a mini-wonder (this is the ONLY time you could upgrade to a mini-wonder). Do NOT allow civs to continue building wonders that have already been built.

New & different wonders:

Hanging Gardens & Sheakespeare's - Switch their effects around

Oracle - 200 cost

Great Wall - All existing cities get level 1 city walls PERMANENTLY(unless destroyed). New cities receive them at size 2. No forced peace or bonus vs. barbarians, but you do get a diplomatic bonus to negotiations. In addition, civ gets 6/8/10 small forts (small/medium/large worlds), one per turn until complete. Forts must start within 5 of a city and be placed within 3 another fort. Each fort is immediately manned by 1 "non"-homed unit of your best defensive type, of average veteran status. The diplomatic bonus ends with modern warfare, all else does not expire. This is based on having 3 levels of city walls, 1 per warfare category(ancient, gunpowder, modern), level 1 walls have reduced bonuses vs. more modern weaponry.

Rich's Crusade - All move2 units built receive bonus to veteran status, cumulative w/ Sun Tzu. In addition, cities with temples receive +1 trade, +2 trade if they have cathedrals, +3 if both (the pilgrimage routes). Also there is a 5% chance per turn of discovering a tech of a civ you are at war with, maximum of 1 tech per civ per turn. Available with chivalry, expires with conscription.

Women's sufferage - Get rid of it. Replace with universal sufferage tech. Have police stations act as extra military units that work in representative governments.

The New Deal - Replaces Cure for Cancer. Available w/ Labor Union, which allows the tech to actually have a function (besides mech. inf.? Shouldn't that be with Combined Arms?)

The Great Polis - Available with philosophy. Allows city to receive the best benefits of all govts. If using SMAC-style Social E then removes all the negative effects of your SE choices for that city. 300 cost, does not expire, BUT fails to function once CAPTURED. Will not function again until all inhabitants are assimilated into your empire.

Apollo, Manhattan - Civ that builds may start construction 6 turns before other civs.

Darwin's V - Available with Magnetism.

Dome on the Rock - No expire. Avail. w/ Monotheism. 1 "content" person per city. All other civs w/Monotheism suffer 1 "unhappy" face per city that is size 4 or larger, x2 effect on theocratic govts., no effect on communist ones.

Ise Shrine - Like a 1/2 strength Oracle, +1 "content" citizen in cities with temples. However, effects last until RADIO.

Trans-Siberian Railroad (my version) - All your cities are immediately connected by rr's, if possible. 1/2 construction time of rr's by settlers/engineers. Available w/ Railroad, no expire.

Certain wonders are not "concrete" i.e. Darwin's, Marco Polo, Apollo Program, etc. These can only be captured by completely conquering the civilization that built them. If more than one civ is responsible for the conquest then the owner is determined (on a wonder by wonder basis) by % chance based on total # of enemy population captured in their cities. Concrete wonders, Great Wall, Pyramids, etc. add +5 trade to city after they expire, +2 trade per additional expired wonder in that city (tourism). Concrete wonders may be destroyed, but this will have severely negative diplomatic effects on relations with the previous owner.

Allow wonder effects to not be negated if the owning civ does not have diplomatic contact with the civ which received the negating technology (or whatever).

My votes to other's ideas,

Yes:
programmable wonders (as above), turn-off wonders, natural wonders, alliance shared effects, alternates to shield production, wonders w/uni benefits (but the owner gets immediately, others receive much later), naming your own & landscape based

Maybe:
land-engineering, visible, culture defined, gradual obsolesence, wonder as civ-wide project

No:
Wonder deterrents, disallow by race, evolving wonders (except tourism), re-buildable, cultural only, uncertain effects, cooperative building, special projects, delayed availability, no person-based

***IMPORTANT***
WONDER COST AFFECTED BY WORLD TYPE

Certain wonders are more beneficial in certain worlds. Lighthouse, Magellan's are more beneficial in high water worlds than in low water ones. Marco's is better on large maps with many civs than in small maps with few civs. Civ3 should deal with this by changing the cost of wonders automatically after generating the world map.

<font size=1 color=444444>[This message has been edited by Theben (edited June 14, 1999).]</font>

**Bird** · June 14, 1999, 16:33

EnochF: thanks for all the work so far. I'd appreciate it if you would separate the comments about the Eiffel Tower from the list of suggested wonders, though, because the main point gets lost there. The main point is that the wonder is currently totally useless in MP and, for moderately experienced players, of extremely limited value against the AI. No experienced player ever builds it unless there's nothing else to do. There are undoubtedly countless ways the change the ET's effects to make it useful, and I gave my idea, which I appreciate that you included, but the important thing is just to change it.

**EnochF** · June 14, 1999, 16:45

[click, process]

Yeah, all right. I gave the Internet wonder its own section, so why not Eiffel Tower... hang on, let me edit what I've got here...

Okay, that was quick.

Theben, you're a good egg. Always ready to talk sense. I'll definitely incorporate your comments.

<font size=1 color=444444>[This message has been edited by EnochF (edited June 14, 1999).]</font>

**NotLikeTea** · June 14, 1999, 17:05

Great summary! Wheee! Some comments:

EnochF: Re harbours.. I work in halifax, which is the second largest harbour in the world, and generates great trade for us.. World's Largest Harbour is mentioned in the list as a pseudo-wonder.. what about making it a full fledged Natural Wonder, sicne we really can take no credit for it being so big ?

Theben: The trans siberian railroad sounds great, but is it maybe too powerful? RR's to all cities gives and enormous advantage on the defence, or on border wars. What if it allowed RR's to be build directly, without having to build a road first? Would encourage RR's to far off places (like Siberia, afterall).

Me: I'm rethinking my Sicence for Science wonders, Luxuries for Happy wonders.. Would this result in the rich getting richer? The civ with the most luxuries would have an advantage building a happy wonder, and would get even MORE luxuries. On the other hand, this could result in specialisation, rather than generalisation. A civ could be a real power on the diplomatic or science front, while it is resource poor. Need to think this one out a bit more...

**Theben** · June 14, 1999, 20:54

EnochF,
Thanks. I should also say that I disapprove of world's greatest, just because I can see I lot of wasted production being poured into a minor effect, which would then negate it's usefulness to the game, which would then make it's presence pointless.
Bird,
I changed the Eiffel Tower in my civ2 modpack to the Bill of Rights(avail. w/democracy, along w/SOL), which I believe would be more inspiring to other people than a hunk of steel. Perhaps additional game effects could be implemented with the diplomatic bonus-like the AI actually accepts your demands more often, or a luxury bonus in representative govts(w/Bill of Rights, that is).

Notliketea,
The trans-rr might be a bit tough, but not overwhemingly. In the 1st place I am assuming that rr's in civ3 will not grant free movement but will instead drastically cut down on it (something like 1/12th point per square, and all units moving on rails would get the same amount of movement points. Check out don Don's MOVEMENT, SUPPLY, etc. thread). IMHO the SP's in SMAC are unbalancing. Get the weather paradigm, and ALL your terraforming times are reduced substantially which will make you pretty tough later in the game. Or play the UN and build the Human Genome, or Empath Guild!! Also consider that most players connect their cities by rail ASAP in civ2. All this does is speed up the process somewhat. Lastly, how many vet civ players on the "strategy" threads consider defensive fighting a good idea? They all mention offensive tactics.

Don't give up on the alternate to shield construction yet. True, not all science wonders would qualify, and I'm not sure any lux types would work. But some of those "non-concrete" wonders might fit.

**Theben** · June 14, 1999, 21:08

notliketea,
I should also mention that building rails before building regular roads was discussed in don Don's thread (since rails often preceeded roads in many areas) and I support the idea. I hope I don't sound like I'm being defensive or attacking you by this long response to your critique, because I'm not; it just took awhile to explain where I'm coming from is all.

**EnochF** · June 15, 1999, 05:13

Theben: As far as World's Greatest goes, I could take or leave it. If done well, it would be a welcome expansion of the early game. Of course, your objection, that the shield cost would become overwhelming fairly soon, is in my mind a built-in limitation. After a certain point, it's just not worth the expense to build the tenth World's Greatest University. Banks and stock markets would be fairly useful even into the late game, though, as would palaces. Then there's the suggestion that the production cost not be doubled, but graded in 10% increases.

Bill of Rights... hey, I think I've got your modpack... the one with Timber Construction and Legionary Tactics, right? Come to think of it, a lot of the advances in your tech tree I've been listing off in the Technology thread, and I wasn't giving you credit because I didn't know the modpack was yours. Bugger. Sorry.

**Bubba** · June 15, 1999, 07:26

As my suggestion as to Great Leaders/Persons was almost last on v.1 of the bullentin board, I thought that I would explain it more than was provided in the summary.

Many of the wonders, seem very tangentially linked to the people and their work that the wonder is to represent. Examples of some of these include Shakespeare Theatre (it wasn;t even his and didn't only show his plays), Darwin's Voyage (he did not direct it but only made notes while on route), etc. I AM NOT saying that these people were not wonderous, becuase they were but it was the people and their ideas which are the key not the things that were construced in Civ II.

With this in mind how about an idea like this that combines some of the most interesting aspects of the Civ II scenarios and Colonization. Instead of some of the tangential "people" wonders, their might be a Great Person special unit/s for each civilization that MIGHT appear randomly throughout the game.

These units could be of several types:

1) Cultural/Scientific: great thinkers/creators that would act much like a wonder and double scientific bonus for a city. People such as these would include Einstein, Newton, etc.

2)Military: a great general or admiral that would offer either an defensive/offensive bonus while in a stack (like a General). Or perhaps they might add one movement to a land or sea stack. Examples of these would be any of the great generals in the Civ scenarios.

3) Political/Cultural: These people would provide a happiness bonsus for any city they were fortified in to replicate the ability of a determined politican to lead their people when all seems lost or to inspire the people with their art. Examples of this might include, Churchill, Gandhi, Lincoln, Lenin, Mao, Shakespeare, Micheangelo etc.

These units could not be rebuilt once destroyed and would match the time & Age in
which they arrived. Moreover they would last only as long as that Age to represent their life span and the transitvity of their genuis.

I'm not saying that all the wonders that are tied to people be eliminated becuase sometimes, the wonder does transcend the person (perhaps Micheangelo's Chapel).

Benefits of a mixed person, Wonder system include:

1) no need to come up with strange wonders to fit in a worthy candidate.

2) no arbitrary obsolence technologies that everyone argues about, their would be a natural obsolence.

3) The ability of an enemy to destroy the great leader by attacking the city and permaturely ending their benefit but the counter-ability to have the leader flee to another city and 'fight another day.'

4) Due to the randomness of their appearance and the varied great leaders one could program for each civ, this would ensure that every game was special and different. Games would no longer be a mechanical, get x tech, change to government y, make z wonder. Thus replay ability would be increased.

Additionally, this system could be tweaked so that the randomness of the appearance of the Great Person could be relected by your style of play and choices, e.i. no Churchill if you are a fascist government, more chance of Shakespeare with more theatres etc.

I think that this might be a good idea, it is relistic, fun and easy to implement. Any comments?

**Bubba** · June 15, 1999, 07:39

Just on the issue of wonders that reflect a great achievement, such as Magnellan's expedidition, the Red-Line (the British Empire's unbroken telegraph system that crossed the Globe and went only through international (sea) and UK/Dominion held territory that linked London with the world), the Grand Canal (built by China many centuries ago), Trans-Siberian Railroad, Polar Expeditions, what if the benfit of the wonder went to the first civ that actually completed the act. (my apologies to the person who mentioned this first but it is a great idea!).

Thus, +2 movement for circumnavigation, +1 defence for any civ for Listening Posts (CTP) that circumnavigate the globe, +1 food on all canals for the first civ that builds a canal X long, +.6 movement for first railway x squares long, +1000 gold for discovering North & South poles, etc.

Two wonders not on the List which might be included in some fashion:

1) Crystal Place: a extermely large building of glass and iron constructed for the World's Exhibition in the 1850s, which demonstrated the pre-eminence of british industry and techinical skill.

2) Red-Line: (discussed above)

**NotLikeTea** · June 15, 1999, 09:17

I was the one to suggest it, and those ideas are great! Would encourage exploration in the later game.

Main problem is that some are too easy to do. The Poles do not exist on the Civ Globes, and the ice caps are easy to get to.

Also, a tech limiting factor is needed, or else a licky trireme could get Magelleans Expedition in the very early days.. maybe something like first circumnavigation after the discovery of Steam?

I'd also like to see the discovery of a new continent be something more momentous.

**Theben** · June 15, 1999, 09:47

Don't worry about it EnocF, especially since I never posted my modpack. You have someone elses.

Bubba,
Interesting idea on the person wonders. I have an idea for 'leader' units and your suggestions would help.

**Flavor Dave** · June 15, 1999, 13:19

Maybe I'm asking alot, but could you post (as briefly as possible) the justification for ideas, where it isn't obvious. I mean, it's obvious why it would be cool to have the option to turn off wonders, or Natural Wonders. But some of these ideas really puzzle me, like advocating a random chance that the Lighthouse burns out, or leo's doesn't upgrade a unit, etc.

Was there alot of discussion that WOWs are too powerful? If so, I'm surprised. B/c only Sun Tzu and the Great Wall, of the WOWs, does anything to prevent me from taking a Wonder City.

**EnochF** · June 15, 1999, 14:29

Yeah, people are nuts, that's all I have to say. A lot of power gamers and military strategists think the Wonders are way too powerful, that they overshadow all aspects of gameplay, and would rather play Civ without Wonders at all. I often get the impression they'd rather play without economics, too. Or city management. Or space travel. In fact, they'd rather play Age of Empires over the Internet.

**Flavor Dave** · June 15, 1999, 16:42

EnochF--If I'm understanding your post correctly (you weren't being facetious, right?), the main objection was that WOWs divert shields from what these guys really want to use them for, which is building military units.

If that's the case, you're right, these folks need to find another game. WOWs tend to increase your happiness or your science. That's why I like them--they balance out the purely military aspects of the game.

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WONDERS (ver 1.2): Hosted by EnochF

WONDERS (ver 1.2): Hosted by EnochF

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