SPACE EXPLOITATION (ver1.0): Hosted by Smilo

[smilo]

SPACE, THE FINAL FRONTIERE

Space flight, the toughest challenge for mankind, one of mans richest resources, the future cornerstone of mankinds future.

Yet poorly covered in CIVII.

In CIVII, you can achieve mankinds wildest dream, colonization of other worlds. But nevertheless it is the ultimate goal in a distant future, many more benefits come from space flight today.

Where CIVII jumps from the Apollo program straight to Colonisation, would it not be nice to be able to launch telecom sattelites to increase happyness. Or set-up a network of spy sattelites to increase your intelligence on competing civilisations.

This thread invites you to offer ideas on a more extended and expanded impact of space flight in civIII.

Please throw in any idea or comment you might have,
Smilo

<font size=1 color=444444>[This message has been edited by smilo (edited June 01, 1999).]</font>

[Ecce Homo]

I have not played CtP, so I just know some rough facts about space colonization there.

One critical issue concerning how much space stuff to be in Civ 3, is what time range the game should have. Please discuss it in my thread in the Civ 3-General forum.

On my wishlist there are colonization of the Moon, Venus and Mars. Could these be Wonders, or maybe alternative world maps?

[smilo]

Some food for tough on how to get sattelites into the civ III game.

1. Researching the advance space flight will open options to research other, more specific space flight advances:
> COMSAT : a network of communication sattelites. each sattelite build will cover a specific area of the word map, increasing trade,science and happyness. The comsats can be placed anywhere on the map (above). The more comsats you build, the more area you cover.
> SPYSAT : identical game rules as COMSAT, but provides high intellignece on cities, units, other sattelites, etc (like the investigate city option for diplos and spies).
> LASERSAT : identical rules to above. can attack a unit, or other sat.
> TELEPORTSAT : teleporting units?
> ENERGYSAT : increases production, decreases pollution ?
2. Each time a specific space advance has been researched a civ can start building the specific sattelites.
3. Each sattelite network needs at least one dedicated control centre to be build in a city by choice. Multiple control centers can be build in different cities to provide back-up centers. If a control centre gets destroyed, the civ looses any benefits from the sattelites until a new control centre has been build.
If control centre has been captured two things can happen. A) The loosing civ has a backup control centre and takes control from there.B) The loosing civ has no backup centre and looses control of the sattelites to the capturing civ.

[smilo]

como,

I would keep colonization as the final goal of the game. You can plug our neighbouring planets and moons into the game by playing with the resource shotage effect on earth.
Assume that in the game the abundance of natural resources if made dependend on the production level through the years. Sooner or later the natural resources stock will dwindle and production will suffer. If a civ wants to keep its prod level running, it has to establish mines on the neighbouring planetes and moons. These mines are small cities where specific improvements have or can be build to allow the mining of specific resources. population would not be a major issue but resourses would.
It would require new maps, though to keep the process simple the game culd limit action on these new maps to putting down mines.

[EnochF]

Although it hadn't really occurred to me, the inclusion of a completely separate "moon map" would, at least for me, make late-game Civ a whole lot more interesting. For me, Civ is a game of frontiers, and once you've explored the globe, it's just so much micromanagement. It's dull. (But then again, I tend to think that about our own little globe...) A new frontier would keep me interested, as a player. It's better than a campaign to rule the Earth, anyway. Once a "moon map" is available, it would be simplicity itself to create a similar "Mars map." In fact, there would be nothing to stop us from making a Titan, Europa, Venus or Ganymede map.

As for the implementation, I've played some Call to Power in space, and I happen to like the basic system. Orbit = a separate map superimposed on the global map, in which there are no special resources and the tiles of which produce nothing without improvement. Certain units will have the ability to "launch" themselves into space, and others will require a "rail launcher" (I don't know whether that will stay... maybe call it a "mass driver" or a "laser propulsion station" or something) or a space elevator to get into orbit. At one point I was competing with a fellow spacefaring nation, and I really felt a sense of accomplishment as my fleets of space fighters massed around enemy space stations.

Some additions: SDI should be built in space only. I wouldn't load the game up with satellite units, but a few wouldn't hurt. Spy satellites have obvious military uses as player-controlled units. Communications satellites would be nice to launch, but certainly not to control; they would make better "improvements" than units. In fact, we might have to invent a new class of improvements for satellites. They're not built in cities, but in orbit, they require a certain upkeep, and they can be taken out by enemy space units ("pillaging" in space). That would take care of space telescopes and global positioning and telecommunications and even energy-focusing.

[Ecce Homo]

EnochF, thanks for explaining the CtP space system. CtP doesn't seem to suck as hard as I first thought it did

To make orbiting close to real life, space should have two "levels". First the close orbit, where space shuttles, spy satellites and Mir hang around. Then we have the geostationary orbit, where communication (and future energy) satellites orbit to stay above the same spot over Earth.

So, Earth would have five "floors" - the sea floor, the surface, the low atmosphere, the close and the geostationary orbit levels.

The Moon (and maybe other celestial bodies) would be separate, but simple, maps.

[Certhas]

I already posted this in the radical ideas thread, but Ecce Hommo correctly pointed out that this belongs here, too.

My idea is easy, have multiple planets. We reach Alpha Centauri at the end of Civ, so why don't we start to colonize the planet? We would find new materials, allowing new technologies, and after a time we would get to more advanced technologies, allowing more regular space travel. And then, we get to other planets, as do our oponents. Of course we need a kind of automisation for this. I'm think among the lines of planetary gouverners, that manage a planets microcosmos. Furthermore, there shouldn't be to many planets avaible, perhaps about 20, whith 4+ civs rushing for them would mean ~ 5 planets per civ. Apart from planets, that would be managed the same way as earth, you could have smaller planets around other suns, that are not capable of supporting life, but instead are just mines or something like this.
Along with several planets, I would love to have things like huge space stations in the space between the planets, and solar systems, acting as very small planets.
Perhaps, later on, even a Deathstar.
Then, after a while we find some strange ruins on some of the planets, and get alien technology, and finally, we are the first civ to travel to another dimension

Actually it would have fit better for SMAC, I guess, but neithertheless, I think it would be fun.

[Spartan187]

I think first you should be able to build satelites after "space rocketry" or something like that, and after a few more tech. advances, be able to build space stations, like the space cities in CtP. After even more tech. advances, you should be able to set up bases on the moon or Mars, although they would cost a very large amount of production and would take some time to reach their destination. After more tech. advances, you should be able to build wonders of the world that completely terraform Mars and/or the moon, allowing Mars or moon bases to be constructed at the same cost as settlers. After more tech. advances, constructing bases beyond our solar system and on Jupiter's moons and Pluto then becomes an option. I would also like to see some massive space ships like the Star Destroyer available for usage.

[Blade Runner]

smilo,

FIGHTERSAT: search and destroy enemy SAT's.

Blade Runner

[CormacMacArt]

Perhaps we are talking about the third game in SM: Sweep of Time? In SMAC, we get the feeling that the entire solarsystem is devoid of human life. Why not make colonization of this solar system the "end-game" of Civ III and colonization of AC (that's Alpha Centauri, not Atlantic City! ) the goal of this "interim" game?

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Civ needs to stay Earth-(and near Earth orbit-) bound. I can't decide if I like the the space overlay in CTP or not, though. I think it depends on the time and tech span of the game. If CivIII is going to be the same time range as CivII, the abstracted space model used in SMAC would be sufficient, but if there's going to be more future-tech involved, and overlay will be necessary. Personally, I'd like to see enough tech to go into the 22nd century, which will include enough for the overlay model.

[Harel]

First of all, by the sweep of time, we must have close-future techs. The unity was launched by the end of CIV, but it used a futuristic fusion power.
Even on fusion power tech info in SMAC, is said fusion was allready known on Earth.
So, we must have atleast the techs close by.

BTW, do you really think CIV will be tolerable with several maps on the same time? Even CtP system was a bit dis-orienting. CIV need to be simple and intutative. You can't have several maps, on even far-away cities. Beside, that is too-advanced tech. SMAC starts in 2100, after 40 years of voyage. So we can't go any highter then, lets say, 2050 tech. The sweep-of-time, all related. We might get one colony to the moon, or Mars, but not several. Not enough to make several cities.
The wonder suggestion is right on the money. Lab stations would be a building, just like the different Sats. You should also have maintance station ( reduce the very high maintence cost of Sats )
Hydrophonic station ( extra food )
Habitat station ( extra pop suppost )
Factory station ( +25% production )
Ship-dock ( allow complex space-based wonders and reudce Sat building cost ).
Cities on the Moon and Mars should be a wonder. The wonder will give a VERY big pop bonus. Mars one will be bigger, but it will cost much much more.
Other possible wonder:
The astroid liners ( A big production income )
Terraforming ( Increase Mars pop bonus even more )
Something else...?

[feanor]

And yet we have no explanation of how we avoid the Relativistic effect nor how to generate enough energy just to make interplanetary trips reasonably fast. The thought of Wormhole inside our solar system bothers me, for who knows the effect of such phenomenon. My interest in Civilization started by possibility of simulating some historic and fictinal situations to see what kind of directions or policy would be most effective. It is my belief that colonizing Jupiter should be the limit for Civ III, for I don't expect us to create a large habitat around Jupiter within 100 years, yet shudder to think what kind of developements in weapons and economy be possible by that time.

And please let us not discuss a scientific means of teleportation, unless we allow magical threads in the game. The Star Trek's Concept of dematerialization and rematerialization invites many troublesome debate over the definition of self and death, and I hope to avoid this in this game. A way around it would be worm hole like interdimensional(hyperspace) travel, but if we can have personal dimensional-travel gate system, we should already have found a way around light-speed limit.

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My wife likes Civillization


[This message has been edited by feanor (edited May 26, 1999).]

[Harel]

Inter-planetry travel is quite possible today, btw.
Solar panels to activate ion-drives ( Xeon plasma impulse-drive, the most effiecent engine today, with a 45% effienency ) would give a very fair speed.
Nuclear engines are also possible for many years, and would also give a speed of up to 50 km per second.
A space Elevator ( see the striking "Mars" series, by Kim stanely robinson ) could catapult shuttles out of Earth orbit are around 30 km per second, with almost no cost of energy.
Besides, let go by this one more time. The guys in Firaxis wants thier sweep-of-time, all games must related.
SMAC clearly killed Earth pop by the time the Unity got to AC in 2100, and it left in struggles that were allready thier in 2050. The game won't push pust 2050 tech, thats for sure. That's our time-line.
Therefor, massive colonaziation of the Moon and Mars and very un-likely, therefor maps of them are out of the question.
The only possible way out are small outposts with wonders, my suggestion.

[smilo]

Space is a key point in civ, so please offer any thoughts on it while there is still time.