WONDERS (ver1.1): Hosted by EnochF

[NotLikeTea]

I've been looking through the wonders of CivII. Most of the non-ancient wonders are very western based.

We have JS Bach's Cathedral, and Michalangelo's Chapel. Why not a famous Mosque, or Synagogue, or other temple?

The race into space starts with the Apollo program? The USSR launched the first satellite, the first animal in space, the first man in space, and had the first space walk. Why not give them a little more credit, and make the Apollo wonder into the first man on the moon, another important feat. Come to think of it, I don't think there is any representation by Communist nations in the wonders list. I remember a never build "Great Hall of the Soviet", which was to be an immense structure (biggest on earth) that could be a cool diplomatic/political wonder.

I'm sure there are other wonders that could be modified to be more international... The Americas are entirely unrepresented, except for the US itself, which is is over represented. I'm sure the Inca's or the Aztecs did something worth commemorating (a pyramid, perhaps?)

[EnochF]

I tend to agree. And while I find Call to Power's "Ramayana" a bit flaky, I would definitely support the Kaaba as a mid-game religious Wonder. As for Russia, I'm rooting for the KGB Wonder, but perhaps that's not quite the representation you were hoping for...

Besides, no matter how well balanced the Wonders may be, there will inevitably be negative reactions. "If the Taj Mahal, why not X?" "If the Kremlin, why not Y?" "What makes the Statue of Liberty more historically influential than Z?" And so forth. Would you be willing to sacrifice the Hanging Gardens in exchange for the Moai Statues of Easter Island?

Anyway, I think the current list of suggestions includes several appropriate international Wonders (as well as quite a few questionable ones.)

[Q Classic]

Thank you, Enoch, for your gracious compliment.

I think the following should be listed as flags for customizable wonders:
For Landmarks, World's Greatests. These are what they modify.
[trade]
[happiness]
[science]
[production]
[food]
[energy]
[population]
------
Here are general limitation flags
•must be built between cities across
[channel]
[river]
[mountain]
[hill]

•must be built in cities with access to
[inland seas]
[oceans]

•must be built in cities with
[all city radii squares filled]
------
[No limits on instantaneous transport via Psi Gate or Airport]
[Increases Happiness regardless of distance to capital]
[Increases Happiness in Random city of a member nation every 4 years]
[Increases trade from each civ with Television advance; Competition arises if more than one exists, which means those that have a higher luxury rate will have a higher percentage of gold returning from this project from a gold pool created from ((.5×total city trade1)+(.5×total city trade2)+...), with each city in a civ that has the television advance]

[Acts as a barracks/command center in each city]
[Acts as a Granary in each city]
[Increases defense in every city]
[Naval base in each city]
[Acts as a power plant in each city on the same continent]
[Protection of a spy in each city]

[Increases trade]
[Increases Science Output]
[increases production]

[Increases trade in host city]
[Increases host city's happiness]
[Increases Production in Host city]

[Any advance known to at least 2 other nations]
[Any advance known to at least 2 other nations with the Internet Advance]
[Two discoveries immediate; thereafter, 10 free advances per age on average]
[Universal increase in Science Output for all civs with Internet advance]

[Opens embassies in other nations]
[Closes foreign embassies already open (does not prevent new ones from opening)]
[Prevents others from attacking first]
[Increases Voting Power in Earth Council]
[Earns higher regard]

[Eliminates conversion]
[Eliminates Crime/Corruption/Waste/Inefficiency]
[Eliminates maintinence]
[Ends threat of global disaster]

[Eliminates all Nuclear weaponry]
[Allows construction of EcoRangers, destroys top three pollution cities]
[Allows construction of Nuclear weaponry]
[Allows construction of Planet Buster weaponry]

[Increases ship movement]
[Increases attack MORALE]
[Increases Psi attack/defense]
[Increases terraforming rate]

[Reduces war unhappiness]
[Reduces unhappiness/rioting]
[+2 SUPPORT]
[+1 POLICE]
[happiness increased in cities smaller than 5]

[Upgrades free/halved]
[Halves Maintenance]
[Reduces military readiness costs]
[Space improvement costs halved]
[Complete repairs in the field]
[Eliminates overcrowding and pollution unhappiness]
[Research Facilities Increase happiness]
[Research facilities increase trade]
[Can exceed population restrictions]
[Bases start at size 3]
[Permanent Population boom]

[Allows construction of Space improvements]
[Free transportation/orbital insertion]
[Space colony directly overhead]

[Doubles effectiveness of Temples, Cathedrals; Doubles tithes]
[Frees slaves, causes freed slaves in enemy civs to be unhappy]
[Government/Social Engineering Choice switchovers immediate]
[Protects city from disease]
[Radar coverage of the world]

[Victory Wonder]
------
Granted, It's a bit off topic, but...

[EnochF]

Another vote for Gradual Wonder Obsolescence. (check mark)

Russell: About these mini-wonders... would you rather have a mini-wonder system than, say, a World's Greatest system?

Q Cubed: Amazing classification of wonders into categories. Now, I know this isn't what you intended, but I think we could take these "wonder effects" and use them as game flags for genuine customizable wonders...

Also, I would be more comfortable with the concept of "natural wonders" if they were classified merely as "landmarks," as you suggest, and perhaps provided a mild trade bonus.

I'm intrigued by the concept of Wonders being different from National Projects, and I see the distinction, which is an important one. As far as gameplay goes, I would be willing to play a game where "national projects" are wonders, or where the two are in separate categories. Either one is fine with me.

[The Rusty Gamer]

No reason why we can't have a combination of both mini-wonders and World's Greatest just to make it more interesting; could be options to switch on or off on the setup screen.

[paraclet]

I favor an off on option for the wonders, or that everybody should be able to build all wonders , even if somebody else has already built it...
Otherwise it gives an unfair advantage to those building it.And the names are for me not so important...Why a "pyramid" shpould give a granary in each city ? I don't see any connection between a Pyramid and a Granary...
But if everybody is able to build a "Great Granary" then it's understandable...
Same with each wonder...The Leonardo workshop should be replaced by a National academy of thechnology , the Colossus by a National Bank etc...
Magellan expedition by Naval Academy
Lighthouse being available to everybody as lighthouse...
Sun Tzu War academy as National War Academy
King Richard Crusade as Superior War academy
Marco Polo embassy as Minister of foreign affairs
Hanging Gardens as National Park
Great Wall as Nationa Institute of military Architecture
Copernicus observatory as Astronomical Institute
Shakespeare Theater as National Theater
Adam Smith Trading company as National Stock Market
Statue of Liberty as Adhesion to Human Rights Organisation
JS Bach Cathedral as National Opera
Michaelangelo Chapel as National Ballets
Darwin,s voyage as Geographical Institute
Women's suffrage can stay the same
Hoover Dam as National Dam
United Nation as adhesion to United Nations
Cure For Cancer as Nationa Medical Institute
Like that all civilisations should be equals depending of their investments...

[Flavor Dave]

Paraclet--the problem with your idea is that it prevents you from making CHOICES, which is the essence of a strategy game.

I don't understand your "unfair advantage" statement. I mean, the "unfair advantage" of the Pyramids is balanced by the "unfair advantages" of the Colossus and Hanging Gardens and....That's the whole point of wonders.

[Kris Huysmans]

I suggest that some wonders only work when you have a specific religion:

Christians : King Richard's Crusade, ...
Atheist : Lenin's dream , ...
Boeddhist : Lama Temple, ...
Greek ancient religion: Orakle, ...
Farao cultus : Piramites, ...
Islam : The great Jihad, ...
Zen : The Japanes economic mirakle, ...
UFO : The Seti project, ...

[NotLikeTea]

What do people think of almost-real wonders? Wonders that almost were built in our history, but didn't make it? Should these be included?

[EnochF]

We're in our last week! This is your last chance to list your idea or to take issue with somebody else's!

[Stefu]

You shouldn't be allowed to rush buy wonders. This would create better "wonder races". Also choice to divert production to wonder city - this would simulate that whole nation is in part of wonder production. This would require wonders to be of greater work. Also if Social Engineering is implemented, we need more wonders which improve some Soc. Engineering choices, like Cloning Vats in SMAC, for instance if there is Goverment choice Empire, then Forbidden City could remove negative effects of this choice.

[NotLikeTea]

I was thinking of rushing wonders. Rushing should be allowed, but scaled down. Say, you can only rish a wonder by 10% per turn, so the very fastest you could ever finish a wonder would be in 10 turns (would require a production limit, too).

In SMAC I'd discover a tech, buy the wonder, and have it done in the next turn. That's dull.

[Eggman]

An interesting concept is to allow multiple cities to build one wonder. In Civ2, you can build caravans and then ship them over to the city building the wonder. Why not just let that production go in directly and cut out the middle man? So while the Statue of Liberty is being built in New York, the cities of Dallas, Boston and Atlanta dedicate their production to New York to aid in building the statue. Their production is added to the project automatically each turn. This basically does the same thing as the caravan model but without moving caravans around.

Of course, if the caravan model becomes more automated (like CTP) this time around, the old caravan wonder model would be a whole lot easier to use.

[NotLikeTea]

I dislike the Caravan model of trade, but I've always liked caravans and wonders. Makes it look like it's a real national project.

Does the AI use caravans for wonders? Having jets bombing enemy caravans to delay their project would be rather exciting.

[Flavor Dave]

I don't know this for a fact, but I think AIs do what Eggman suggests 2 posts above. I've often checked with my embassy, and seen the AI building a 400 or 600 shield wonder in a bunch of cities--and finish it quickly.