WONDERS (ver1.1): Hosted by EnochF

[Stefu]

You forgot Motherland Statue!

[Stefu]

How about spy option of Destroy Wonder? They usually never get destroyed anyway, as you never have big fights about cities that have built them. Destroy Wonder is, of course, quite expensive, and destroying one of the great achievements of humanity is certainly considered to be atrocity.

[NotLikeTea]

Little wonder that never was.

The Soviet Union was planning on building the "Grand Palace of the Soviet" or somesuch.. really cool looking building, biggest on earth, lots of spires, towers, etc.

It was never built, since the place they cleared for it (they dinamited a cathedral) was too swampy to support it. The cahedral was rebuild after the Union fell, I believe.

This could be somethign interesting, perehaps giving diplomatic bonuses for relations with other communist nations. A real cold war wonder...

[Ecce Homo]

NotLikeTea...
This is an excellent opportunity to apply the "Greatest in the World" concept. The World's Greatest Palace would be possible to build throughout the whole game. (Not by democracies.) It would give the owner more respect and kill corruption.

By the way, Hitler also projected an enormous palace in Berlin. As the city was bombed to pieces, he comforted himself that he would not have to clear the land.

[EnochF]

For some reason, the concept of World's Greatest Palace had never occurred to me... that would be an enormous help in early games in despotism, tyranny or monarchy...

[Mo]

If a city which has a wonder in it is destroyed the wonder should remain in one of the city squares. If another civ then builds a city near the wonder they gain part of its effects. To gain all of its effects they should have to spend money or minerals to repair it.

[MBD]

Some random thoughts:

I wonder if every civization that built a wonder of the world knew it would be a wonder while they were building it?

All wonders should be city-based. If it's important enough to be a wonder, then people are going to want to be nearby. It seems far-fetched to say you're building something like the Grand Canyon in one of your cities, though.

Along the lines of the Hollywood wonder in CtP, what about a Wall Street wonder, granting a commerce bonus?

[ml_4da3]

It is quite natural for ships to sail on both rivers and the sea. But it is only some ships, which both sail on the ocean and rivers or just rivers or just the ocean.
Most oceanic ships cannot sail in shallow waters and very small ships cannot sail the ocean very well.

The engineers should be able to modify existing rivers too, that should be less expensive in resources than building a brand new canal. This could be very useful, and it should be a very expensive option. Maybe a new Wonder would be good to introduce here.

[Buffalo]

Here's a thought......

How about if CivIII had a wonder called "Area 51." This wonder would allow the owner a "POSSIBLE" tech advance every few turns-similar to CTP's Internet wonder.

However this wonder would allow the owner to between 1 and 5 tech. advances until the end of the game. This 'boost' in research would be because of the reverse engineering of ALIEN SPACE CRAFTS.......

[Stefu]

How about Nakamatsu's Workshop? Nakamatsu is japanese inventor who has invented over 3,000 thingies over the years. That is 3 times more than one in second place, Thomas Edison with about 1,000 inventions.

[frankdog]

The TIME TUNNEL. I was watching a rerun of this 60's TV show yesterday. They actually sent a guy with a machine gun back to the battle of Troy! None of that "non-involvement" attitute of Star Trek. How many times have you wished you could send back some armour to about 2000 BC to and stop the Zulus before they get started! Perhaps this isn't the best idea for a wonder, it would change the game too much... but it was fantasy of mine yesterday as the Zulus were thrashing me.

------------------
Regards, Doug Moyer (frankdog)
ICQ #13971149
http://www.polarcom.com/~dmoyer

[Q Classic]

My suggestion in the concept of "World's Greatest"
How about not havign a specific amount of time when it's effective, but have it effective until another city builds a "World's Greatest" after it?
i.e., Tokyo (Japan) World's Tallest Building would be effective from 1921-1953, because in 1953, Seoul (Korea) built World's Tallest Building.

But, not have the double cost...have it graded. If they want the building to be greater, all they'd have to do is add 10% to the cost...but, to have it last even longer, they could add subsequent 10% increases, so as to beat it would be more expensive, etc.
i.e., Tokyo=100. Seoul=110+. If Seoul paid 110, next city (Atlanta-US) would pay 121+. If Seoul paid 150, Atlanta would pay 165+.
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As for world wonders. etc:
I like the idea of two catergories:
Wonders (Only built by one nation, can't be rebuilt) and Secret Projects (can be rebuilt, built by multiple nations)
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Also, a lot of the wonders listed above could be considered local wonders, these could have small effects:
<font size="-2">Abu Simbel
Alfred Nobel's Foundation
The Almagest (Ptolemy's Almagest)
The Great Canal
The Iliad
Imperial Navy Shipyard
The Kaaba
King Asoka's Edict
The Kremlin
The Leaning Tower
Machu Pichu
The Mausoleum
Mines of Potosi
The Moai Statues
Potala
Red Square
The Shwedagon Pagoda
Stupa of Wild Goose
Sultan's Forge: boost to gunpowder units/cannons
Tennessee Valley Authority
Ziggurat at Ur
Taj Mahal
The Throne Hall of Persepolis
Banaue Rice Terraces
Great General Staff (Großer Generalstab)
Admiral Nelson's Fleet
Alaskan Oil Pipeline
Diderot's Encyclopedia
Area 51
Aristotle's Encyclopedia of Knowledge
Sydney Opera House
Francis Bacon's Royal Society</font>
======
Here is my suggested list:
() denotes catergory, so it would be Greatest Temple, Greatest Cathedral, etc., and each one counts as a separate greatest.
[] denotes the effect of the thing.
{} denotes names automatically given, or names that can be given to it.
/\ denotes limitations

World's Greatest, small effects only applying to host city
Tallest Building [+trade]
Longest Bridge [+trade] /must be built between cities across channel, river\
Longest Tunnel [+trade] /must be built between cities across channel (~Chunnel), river, mountain, hill\
Greatest (Places of Worship (temple, cathedral)) [+happiness +trade]
Greatest (Places of Trade (marketplace, bank, stock exchange, supermarket)) [+trade]
Best (Places of Education (university, library, academy)) [+science]
Best Superhighways [+production *easier travel between cities]
Largest Harbor [+production +food +trade] /must be built in cities with access to inland seas or oceans\
Busiest Airport [+food +production +trade *easier travel between cities such as multiple flights from airports to this city]
Busiest Seaport [+food +production +trade] /must be built in cities with access to ocean\
Best Hospital [+science +happiness]
Best (Factories) [+production +trade +science]
Best Arcologies [+trade +science +food +production] /must be built in cities with all city radii squares filled, or cities larger than 21 people\
Best (Entertainment Complexes (Stadium, Holotheaters, Movie Palaces)) [+trade +happiness]
Largest Corporation [+trade +science +production +energy]
Greatest Clock Tower [+trade +production]
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Landmarks, randomly seeded by the fractal map generator; confers bonuses to all tiles within a city radius
Big Waterfalls {goes by Niagara, Angel, etc.} [+energy +trade +production]
Big Mountains {Kilimanjaro, McKinley, K2, etc.} [+energy +trade -population]
Big Canyons, Trenches {Grand Canyon, Great Rift Valley, Marianas Trench, etc.} [+energy +trade]
Big Volcanos {Krakatoa, Pinatubo, etc.} [+energy +production -population]
Big Reefs {Great Barrier Reef, etc.} [+trade +science +food]
Big Forests {Schwarzwald, etc.} [+trade +science +production]
Big Jungles {Amazon Rain Forest, the Congo Rain Forest, etc.} [+trade +science +food +production]
Big Deserts {Sahara, etc.} [+trade +science -population]
Big Inland Freshwater Seas {Great Lakes, Lake Victoria, etc.} [+trade +science +food]
Big Inland Saltwater Seas {Caspian Sea, Great Salt Lake, etc.} [+trade +science]
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Wonders, cannot be rebuilt; delayed construction period if first to build it, no delay period if someone is already building it; can be renamed; helps determine culture, determined also by culture; dependent upon geography location; free maintainance; all can be named differently
•[Increases Happiness regardless of distance to capital]
{J.S. Bach's} Cathedral
Hanging Gardens /must be built within 2 squares of water\
{Confucious} Academy

•[Acts as a Granary in each city]
Stonehenge
Pyramids

•[Doubles effectiveness of Temples, Cathedrals; Doubles tithes]
{Michelangelo's, Hagia Sophia} Cathedral
Oracle

•[Eliminates Crime/Corruption/Waste/Inefficiency]
Chichen Itza

•[Reduces military readiness costs]
Sphinx

•[Increases trade]
The Labyrinth
Global EBank

•[Increases trade, Opens embassies in other nations]
{Marco Polo's} Expedition

•[Opens embassies in other nations, Prevents others from attacking first]
The United Nations /Must be a cooperative effort from at least three nations\

•[Increases trade over water, Increases ship movement]
{Magellan's} Expedition /Must be built in a city with access to an ocean\
{East India Company} /Must be built in a city with access to an ocean\

•[Increases science, eliminates conversion]
{Gutenburg Bible}

•[Increases Science Output]
{Copernicus', Galileo's, Tycho's} Observatory
{Isaac Newton's} College

•[Frees slaves, causes freed slaves in enemy civs to be unhappy]
Emancipation Act /Can only be built in a republic, democracy\

•[Eliminates maintinence]
{Adam Smith's Trading Company}

•[Two discoveries immediate; thereafter, 10 free advances per age on average]
{Darwin's} Voyage /Must be built in a city with access to an ocean\

•[Increases Gold in host city]
Colossus

•[Increases defense in every city, Prevents others from attacking first]
Great Wall

•[Eliminates all Nuclear weaponry]
Nanite Defuser

•[Ends threat of global disaster]
Gaia Controller

•[Allows construction of EcoRangers, destroys top three pollution cities]
Eden Project

•[Government/Social Engineering Choice switchovers immediate]
{Statue of Liberty, Motherland Calls, Gateway Arch}

•[Acts as a power plant in each city on the same continent, increases production]
{Hoover, Aswan High, Three Gorges, Itaipú} Dam /Must be built on a river tile, causes an inland sea to form behind it\
Singularity Inductor

•[Any advance known to at least 2 other nations]
Great Library

•[Increases Happiness in Random city of a member nation every 4 years]
The Olympic Games

•[Victory Wonder]
Wormhole Sensor/Voice of Planet-Ascent to Transcendance/Extrasolar colony

------
National Projects, can be rebuilt; delayed construction period if first to build it, no delay period if someone is already building it; can be renamed; helps determine culture, determined also by culture; dependent upon geography location; high maintainance; all can be named differently, weaker effects
•[Increases Happiness regardless of distance to capital]
Cure for Cancer
{Ramayana}
Clinical Immortality
Contraception

•[Increases host city's happiness]
{Shakespeare's} Theater
Coliseum (NOT THE Stadium)

•[Acts as a barracks/command center in each city]
The Command Nexus
{Sun Tzu's} War Academy

•[Increases Voting Power in Earth Council, closes foreign embassies already open (does not prevent new ones from opening), opens embassies in other nations]
Empath Guild

•[Increases trade, Closes foreign embassies]
Forbidden City

•[Increases trade, Opens embassies in other nations]
Philosopher's Stone

•[Increases trade, Earns higher regard]
{Eiffel, Tokyo} Tower

•[Increases ship movement, Naval base in each city]
The Maritime Control Center

•[Increases Science Output]
SETI
Supercollider
{Edison's} Lab

•[Universal increase in Science Output for all civs with Internet advance; Increases trade]
Internet Backbone

•[Increases Science Output, 10 free advances on average per age]
Universal Translator

•[Halves Maintenance]
Self-Aware Colony

•[Halves Maintenance, Increases trade]
{London} Exchange

•[Increases happiness, production, and health; protects city from disease]
Immunity Chip
Human Genome Project
Longevity Vaccine

•[Increases trade from each civ with Television advance; Competition arises if more than one exists, which means those that have a higher luxury rate will have a higher percentage of gold returning from this project from a gold pool created from ((.5×total city trade₁)+(.5×total city trade₂)+...), with each city in a civ that has the television advance]
{Hollywood}

•[Radar coverage of the world]
Globesat

•[Allows construction of Space improvements]
{Apollo} Program

•[Protection of a spy in each city]
Hunter-Seeker Algorithm
{The Agency, FBI, CIA, MI6, MI5, KGB, GRU}

•[Increases trade in host city]
{Merchant Exchange, Wall Street}
Dinosaur Park

•[Free transportation/orbital insertion, Space colony directly overhead, space improvement costs halved]
Space Elevator

•[Increases Defense in every city]
National Shield
Citizen's Defense Force

•[Eliminates overcrowding and pollution unhappiness; Research Facilities Increase happiness, trade]
Virtual World

•[Allows construction of Nuclear weaponry]
{Manhattan} Project

•[Allows construction of Planet Buster weaponry]
The Primer

•[Increases Production in Host city]
{King Richard's} Crusade

•[Increases production, no limits on instantaneous transport via Psi Gate or Airport]
Bulk Matter Transmitter

•[Complete repairs in the field, upgrades free/halved]
{Leonardo's, Nakamatsu's} Workshop
Nano Factory

•[Reduces war unhappiness]
Universal Suffrage

•[Reduces unhappiness/rioting]
AI Entity
Telepathic Matrix

•[Any advance known to at least 2 other nations with the Internet Advance]
Planetary Datalinks

•[Increases Psi attack/defense]
Neural Amplifier
Dream Twister

•[+2 SUPPORT]
Living Refinery

•[Increases terraforming rate]
Weather Paradigm

•[Can exceed population restrictions, +1 POLICE]
Ascetic Virtues

•[Bases start at size 3, happiness increased in cities smaller than 5]
Planetary Transit System

•[Permanent Population boom]
Cloning Vats

•[Increases attack MORALE]
Cyborg Factory

[The Rusty Gamer]

Firstly, it seems unfair that a wonder should become obolete because some race you've never even met discovered some tech you've never heard of. It should at the very least be a race you have encountered. This would have an interesting effect in exploring when suddenly you come accross a race that causes your happiness to decrease or whatever the effect of the wonder was.
However, an even better thought is the idea of gradual obsolesence. The first race you encounter with the tech decreases the effects of the wonder to 1/2, the next to 1/3, and the effect continues to taper etc. Of course, when you discover the tech yourself, then I believe it should nullify the effects altogether.
The tapering effect would depend on the type of wonder of course. For instance, if it was the great wall, then the discovery of the appropriate tech (from memory I think it's metalurgy) by each race then makes that race immune to the effects of the wall. Once you've discovered metalurgy yourself, the effects vanish altogether.
This idea may encourage isolationism to some extent but hey!
It would be good to have a certain randomness to the tech that triggers obsolesence in wonder too, slightly different in each game or even different conditions each game eg, Once you've reached a certain population or a certain number of cities or encountered a certain number of races.

[The Rusty Gamer]

Here's some ideas for a new building type --the mini-wonder - that is, buildings that can be built once for each civilization.
The trick to this type of building is, the more civilizations that you encounter that have one, the less positive effect the building has. For instance, say you have a mini-wonder that gives you $100 a turn, sounds good?, but if you encounter another race with the same building, then the effect is immediately halved ($50), the next race, down to $33 and so on. Perhaps after about the 4th race, the pendulum could actually swing the other way and begin to have a negative effect on your race (citizens are upset because everyone else has got the same building they have and you begin to lose money) to the point where you have to tear it down - ah, but then it would give a more positive effect to the other races - what a dilemma! What to do, what to do?

[Flavor Dave]

Not to be mean, but alot of people here need to think thru the effects of the changes they are proposing on gameplay. They'd be making wonders either too powerful, or useless, etc.

I like the idea for changing the effect of the Eiffel Tower, Bird's idea. Remember, it's only 300 shields, pretty cheap at that point in the game. ET would be nice to have, but not game altering; after all, think about how you would approach things if the AI had it. You'd get all of your troops in place, get engineers to build fortresses for them, and declare war. You'd get hit hard, but come back the next turn fairly well off. Turn it around, and if you built it, you'd be secure from annoying "raids" from AI civs, and secure from weak AI civs. But the strong ones would still be a problem.

NOTE: unless you seriously upgrade the AIs attacking ability, teach it a little about feinting, using terrain, and attacking in force, ET would be too darn powerful.

I think the idea of natural wonders is cool. You get two extra trade arrows just in that square. It could really be great on the city screen, and would make explorers slightly more valuable--they'd be able to locate many of these, encouraging you to build cities nearby. One rule--you can't build a city directly on a natural wonder, or else you lose the effect. Anyway, these wouldn't change the game much, they'd just make it more fun. Which is the goal, right?

I agree that they should allow you to name your wonders. Too many US wonders (altho, as an American, I would say that it is merely a reflection of American superiority;-)

One concept I had for a wonder has something like the Agora, or that city in ancient Africa that had a huge market (Mali?) It would allow caravans to treat all terrain as roads, or give them 6 MPs instead of 1, and/or travel over water without ships. Something to make ancient trade easier. Almost all of the wonders are military/diplomatic, scientific, or happy. Of course, you'd have to replace an ancient wonder. My vote would be for Marco Polo's embassy. Once you learn the power of tribute, this wonder is a little too powerful, esp. for a mere 200 shields.

The world's Greatest ideas seem cool. But I wonder how they'd affect gameplay. It might be hard to prevent this effect from being either useless, or dominant. You'd have to balance it very carefully.

"Firstly, it seems unfair that a wonder should become obolete because some race you've never even met discovered some tech you've never heard of."

What's unfair is that the AI is so stupid;-) Since the game is you against everyone else, this effect gives the AI a better chance. The game would be too easy with the change you suggest. Altho gradual obsolesence would be realistic, without dramatically affecting gameplay.