CIVILIZATIONS (ver1.1): hosted by LordStone1

[NotLikeTea]

Flags are fine, but how do you display them on an overview/replay map?

[Harel]

Ok, ok, I know. People love to include THIER own civ's. But I mean, really Cartegia, CANADIAN?! I won't even talk about Americans, they ridicolous entry is allready widely accepted. But canadians? A culture?! Huh?
I you ingnored one of the most vital civ's, my civ, that only CTP chosed to bring into existance: Hebrew. I mean, how many culture DID we have in 4000BC? We were here... Not the bloody canadians...
Here are the true civ list:

Gauls
German
Minoun
Babylonions
Persian
Hebrew
Zulu
Egyptians
Pheonicans
Byzants
Vikyings
British
Chinese
Japanise
Aborjians
Indian
Aztec
Maia
Inca
Russians
Monguls

The rest is just popy-****, they didn't exist back then.

[NotLikeTea]

I agree about canadians not being a valid civilization (you didn't have to be insulting, eh?), and your list looks good.

There is a major problem, though.. how many Vikings do you know today? How about Minoans?

If you look around today, about half of the civs in the list are around in one form or another. But is would also be wrong to dismiss America. They are not a "civilization" but none the less, they are a superpower. Perhaps THE superpower...

The American were originally British, which is on your list. Obviously, having them as a permanant civilization is inaccurate, but having only the old civs is also inaccurate. Somehow, the ebb and flow of civs over time must be represented. Civs just don't last thousands of years, they die, split, merge, and reform.

<font size=1 color=444444>[This message has been edited by NotLikeTea (edited June 01, 1999).]</font>

[Ecce Homo]

I think I wrote this in the former Civs thread, but it wasn't summarized here.

There shouldn't be a civ called "Vikings".
No tribe called themselves "vikings" - a viking was any Danish, Swedish or Norwegian sailor in the 9th and 10th centuries.

Instead, the Danes, Norwegians, Swedes and Finns should be included (not necessarily all of them - they are not that important).

[Harel]

Insulting... maybe. Got a bit upset, i guess. I mean, the hebrew people are the origin of most civ's on Earth, and is one the oldest civ's on Earth. It's annoying people seem to forget about us. But, you agree my Earl gray that the Canadians are not a culture in any spectrum, not even CTP too-wide spectrum.
however, about what you said we need to show the civ's around history. Well, we start at 4000 bc, so we can't just can't show americans in 4000 BC when they only appeared in the 16-17 centaury.
What CAN be done, is have the spawing cultures after the names of the newer civ's: Minoun will break into greek and roman, british into Americans, Gauls into French. However, this is the starting list.
By the way, I streched the time period greatly. In south America, i should have only included the Maia, as the Inca ( and mostly the Aztecs ) are the products of later times.
This also applies for Arabs, Viking, British, Russian, Chinese ( The state Chi was erected by former Persains and monguls ), Japanise and the Byzants.
Also, not to forget, the the Indians ( can't think of one GOOD tribe to mention ), were the by-products of the expanding south-america cultures.
The list should be:

Maia
Gauls
German
Mongul
Egyptains
Hebrew
Persian
Pheonican
Minoun
Zulu
Aborjians
Babylonian

The rest can be programmed into the data-base, and can be switched over time. For example, an AI minoun
"The minoun had a rebellion, and from it ashes comes from a new culture: The greek".
Then, all the names of the greek will be used for that AI.

[NotLikeTea]

[getting off topic]

I thought that the "Indians" (I assume you mean native americans) did not come from the south american cultures, but were an independant culture.

Actually, since migration came from Siberia and spread south, it might be possible to argue that the South american tribes came from the northern ones, though in the case of Civ it's not necessary.

[Rong]

...Chinese ( The state Chi was erected by former Persains and monguls )

Huh? I assume you are talking about the Ch'in dynasty, founded by Shih Huang Ti on 221 BC. He's 100 per cent chinese.

[Q Classic]

I would list these as the civilizations:
======
Greece
Celts
American
English
Native American
German
French
Japanese
Chinese
Russian
Spanish
Korean
Dutch
Portuguese
Viking
Roman
Egyptian
Persian
Turkish
Phoenecian
Zulu
Hebrew
Assyrian
Indian
Khmer
Polynesian
Thai
Indonesian
Incan
Mayan
Nigerian
Aztec
Brazil
Mexico
Ethiopia
Mongols
Byzantine
Arab
Tibetans
======
Oh, and Korea (Shilla, Paekchae and Korguryo) existed as far back as 5000 bc.
Pretty much, almost all East Asian Civilizations have been around for about that long.

[Transcend]

Harel gor wrong about Chinese? Its civilization started around 2000BC and had nothing to do with Mongols or Persians. The first Persian state was founded by Cyrus the Great in 550 BC. By that time, the famous Chinese philosopher Confuzius was already born. It might be true that the first Emperor of China had distant Persian or nomadic(Mongols?) ancestors, but that hardly mattered. What really matters was the cultural characterics such as language, custom, philosophy, and government. China has developed all of these aspects on its own.

In history, Chinese met with Persians around 100BC after they busted Huns under Emperor Wu of Han. The term Mongols did not exist until Chingis Khan, and that was around 1200AD! Before Chingis Khan made appearance, they were simply a tribe among hundreds on the Asian steppes.

I was little off topic. I think we need to set some criteria for civilizations to be included in Civ3. One is the historical significance of a civilization, and its area of influence. Another criteria is its relevance to modern world(After French revolution?). Some of the civilizations that only meet the first criteria are:
- Romans(later Byzantines)
- Ancient Greeks(Minoan, Athenian, Hellenistic)
- Sumerians(later Babylonians)
- Ancient Egyptians (until 31 BC)
- Mayans
- Aztecs including predecessors
- Incas including predecessors
- Phoenicians
- Polynesians
- Celts including Gauls
- Angkor Khmers
- North American Indians?
These civilizations were once very dominant, but now have either disappeared, replaced, or sunken into total insignificance. Their languages, customs, and religions are no longer or very rare in use.
One civilization only meets the second criteria:
- US Americans and Canada

The majority of civilizations in Civ3 will meet both criterias:
- Arabs
- British
- Chinese (or maybe Han?)
- French
- Germans (Deutschen, not those Germans called by Romans)
- Hebrew (or maybe Jew?)
- Indians
- Japanese
- Persians
- Russians (or Slavs in general?)
- Eurasian Steppes Nomads (Huns, Turks, Mongols)
- Scandivians (Vikings, Normans, Sweds)
- Spaniards
- Zulus

I think the above names covered pretty much the civs we need. I don't bother to put aboriginals in because their contributions(boomerang) to our world were too few compared to the above civs.

[Transcend]

I forgot several civs:
- Assyrians
- Benelux countries (Belgium, Dutch, and Luxemburg). They once carved up huge colonial empires.
- Hittites.
- Latin Americans.
- Tibetans.
- I also would like to separate Turks and Mongols, because they really went different ways.

[Diodorus Sicilus]

I Say Again:
NO CIVILIZATION has lasted from 4000BC to the present day uninterrupted. Period.
Egyptians, Sumerians, pre-Aryans in India were the only "civilizations" as defined in the current games in 4000BC (they had cities). China doesn't enter the lists until around 2600BC, Sumerians were submerged by later 'barbarian' invaders out of the Zagros (Assyrians, Cimmerians, etc), Persians were even later nomadic invaders from beyond the Zagros Mountains, and Egypt ceased to be a separate Egyptian civilization when the Persians conquered them - followed by the Macedonians, then the Romans, then the Turks, etc, etc. The Indian civilization around Mohenjo-Daro disappeared when the Aryan (Asiatic nomad) invasions hit in 2500-2000BC.
'Greeks' didn't arrive in Greece until about the same time: even in Classical times they recognized the Dorian Invasions as the end of the original cultures' Bronze Age.
By Gauls I assume you mean Celts - the Halstatt culture doesn't even date to 4000BC, and in any case they'd be "nomadic barbarians" in current game terms for the first 3500+ years of the game.
By British I suppose you could mean the original non-Indo-European speakers of the British isles, but the British (English) Civilization is a result of those folks being conquered by the Romans, then invaded by Saxons, Angles and Jutish Germans, Scandinavians (Norse and Danish 'vikings') and finally conquered by French Normans (more second-generation 'vikings') - by which time they thought of themselves as a Saxon Kingdom!.
ALL Modern Cultures/Civilizations are a result of a series of Overlays: one culture/group invading, being invaded, absorbing, amalgamating with another. The sad fact is that the current Model of Civilization used in all the Civ games does a ratty job of showing this, and rather than argue about which Civs belong in the game, we should figure out how to design a game system that will produce the Modern Civilizations, or a semblance of them, from the ancient civilizations, with suitable problems and opportunities for the player along the way.

[Harel]

Well, being a super power doesn't count, no-o-wazs. Lot's of cultures been the pinnacle of humanity along histroy, and they tumbled down. Just beacause America is a current super-power ( and only for the last 50 years ), and it has the majority of the market doesn't mean we need to settle down and lower our standards.
The game start at 4000 BC... how can you include a culture that it's first settlers only landed 400 years ago, and exist for 250 years? You can't, thats what.
And, sorry, don't take this the wrong way, Canada shouldn't be a minor nation anymore then Zimbabawe should be. It might be a big and rich nation, but it just, well PLAIN. Nothing special or very unique about her, differeneting here from it's Europing origins. Canada did not effect the world civilaztion and history in anyway: atleast you can say the americans did.

[VaderTwo]

True, Canadians haven't contributed much:
idea for UN Peacekeeping forces, telephone, standard time zones, insulin

But you do agree that the Americans should be included, right? By the way, I agree that the Jews and Arabs should be included if for nothing else than their long cultural history.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Hmm, I always thought Civ was about REWRITING history, not REPLAYING it! Therefore Americans in 4000 BC makes sence, because you aren't replaying history (it would be a boring game if you were).

[Cartagia the Great]

Ok, first of all, I'm not Canadian, I'm Wisconsinite, and I resisted the urge to demand the Wisconsinite Civilization. I'll just add my enlightened people later I do see your point, but I always liked the idea of some compitition in the Americas, so I added the Canadians. So, ok, no Canadians, here's my updated list

English
Irish
Celtic(differant than Irish)
Roman
Greek
German
French
Spanish
Russian
Egyptian
Zulu
Chinese
Indian
Aztec
Incan
Mongol
Byzantine(or the Turks under the Ottoman Empire, none of this Ankara being the capital stuff from CTP)
Polish
Nordic
Japanese
Cartegian
Hebrew(yes I agree, they deserve to be in here)
Babylonian
Arabic
Persian
Hungarian
Ethopian(a strong Middle Ages African Empire)
Serbian, Bulgarian, or another Slavic nation
Australian(we really need a civlization on that island)


there, sorry if I missed any