ECONOMICS/TRADE (ver1.0): Hosted by Pythagoras

[Diodorus Sicilus]

What we need is to avoid the utterly abstracted system of SMAC, and avoid micromanagement of every camel in the caravan at the other extreme. At the same time, I'd like Trade to be much more important for bringing wealth into the civilization, because right now it is impossible in any of the games to reproduce the kind of SSSS heavy mercantile empire that Portugal, Holland, or Britain had at various points in history.
Suggestion: instead of building caravans, build the infrastructure to support them in the city that wants to trade. In other words, you either have or need a resource (type would change depending on your Technology Level - no petroleum required in Ancient times, Tin for Bronze-Working less important to Modern) or you have one to trade. You build a Caravanserai (ancient) or Warehouse(Medieval) or Depot (Modern) For your Trade Routes. The number of routes handled by each such Improvement should be fixed, possibly at the current 3 - 4 in CivII/CtP for the entire city. A big trading city would have multiple Depots/Warehouses.
When a Trade Route is proposed/established, the length depends on the Tech Level. To extend the length, it can be traced when it is set up through Way Points. Way Points are intermediate Caravanserai, Warehouses, etc. In other words, cities with Warehouses along the route will also get a % income from the Trade. If the Route goes from land to sea or vice versa, a Way Point is Required: Trading seaports should make out like bandits.
Some cities could make the big bucks without originating any trade themselves: historically, places like Constantinople, Nurnberg, Amsterdam, and London made as much or more from goods passing through as they did from their own manufactures, because they were at places where stuff had to be transfered from land/river to sea or river to river (Nurnberg).
This system would allow much more income to be generated from Trade throughout your civ from a single route, which comes closer to recreating the historical impact of Trade. It would also provide for more realistic Trade Routes, since the required positioning of Way Points could be defined pretty tightly in historical terms. It also requires virtually no management once the route is set up, until Technological Advances allow you to 'tweak' the Way Points: modern sea Transport, for instance, might make any intermediate seaports unnecessary for sea trade, and airports would allow direct trade in non-bulk goods from city to city. Railroads, on the other hand, would allow Bulk Goods to be traded over land routes for the first time for virtually any distance that the railroad runs.
You could also be allowed to change the trade destination. For instance, if one of the Way Points turned out to be a better trading partner (more lucrative market) than the original destination, you could simply cut off the rest of the route.
Trace the route on the map with a much less obstrusive line than the CtP Big Blue Road: maybe a faint blue/gray line for sea/land with a ship or camel/wagon icon moving along it. There could even be a little Bill of Lading under the icon giving the cargo: much better than having a crab sailing from city to city!
I, for one, would really like to have a strategically-placed seaport with a dozen routes converging on it filled with ships and wagons bringing trade goodies to the Depots!

[Flavor Dave]

Diodorus--I think you're onto something, a new city improvement that enhances trade routes.

Are you saying that these structures automatically set up the trade? If so, as far as I can tell, the only difference from the present system is that you'll never lose a caravan along the way, and the caravan will "instantly" arrive. I don't like that idea. Caravans should have to travel, esp. in ancient times.

How about this--have this structure be like a barracks for the caravan. Gives them greater MPs, or greater income, or allows 6 rather than 3 routes. Something.

This would tie in for my idea for a new WOW. The WOW could count as a warehouse in every city.

[Flavor Dave]

Diodorus--I think you're onto something, a new city improvement that enhances trade routes.

Are you saying that these structures automatically set up the trade? If so, as far as I can tell, the only difference from the present system is that you'll never lose a caravan along the way, and the caravan will "instantly" arrive. I don't like that idea. Caravans should have to travel, esp. in ancient times.

How about this--have this structure be like a barracks for the caravan. Gives them greater MPs, or greater income, or allows 6 rather than 3 routes. Something.

This would tie in for my idea for a new WOW. The WOW could count as a warehouse in every city.

[Diodorus Sicilus]

What I'm proposing is to change the emphasis from micromanaging caravans to managing the infrastructure that supports Trade. The Warehouse/Depot would be required to start a Trade Route. What kind of route and with whom would be a Diplomatic Option, as follows:
You contact another Civ (or possibly, a 'friendly' Barbarian). He agrees to talk. Your unit -of any kind- can propose stuff you've got to Trade (based on the Terrain and Terrain Icons you're exploiting, Tech Level, Advances, etc) and he gives you a list of their Trade items. You spot a match (obviously, looking for one where the excess money involved comes to you rather than him). Best of all (for you) would be something you have that he needs Very Badly: Tin to make Bronze was a very early example: you could charge pretty much whatever you wanted to for the stuff if the other guy had no other source.
Having found a potential Trade, you have to build a Caravanserai/Warehouse in the city from which the trade will originate, AND in each Way Point to the destination: you have to establish the infrastructure for the Trade, rather than simply perambulate a camel over the map.
The Way Point requirements would also vary with Tech level and Improvements: Railroads between the two ends of the Trade Route allow a Direct Trade between them, as do modern seaports and container ships: you can ship directly all around the world. Earlier, there would be limits on how far you can haul goods before it's no longer profitable: you might get enough for the tin to haul it clear across Europe (and they did) while your wine, no mater how good, can't make a profit over more than half the distance.
In general, Trade Routes over water or down rivers could be traced much farther between Way Points: that's historical. Over land bulk goods simply can't be shipped: Timber, Food (basic grains or cereals), Unprocessed Ores simply weren't international trade goods unless you could ship them by Bulk Carier: a boat. Railroad changes that, and Good Roads would extend distances between Way Points on land - Roman cities traded long distances within the Empire.
Caravans/Trade would still be lost, but it would be when the Trade Route was interrupted or the Way Point destroyed: pesky barbarian invasions, pirates, etc. One other Diplomatic Option this would add to the game is the Trade Protection Treaty: in exchange for a percentage of the Trade Profit, the barbarian chief/other Civ along the route agrees to not only not raid the Trade, but protect it against other raiders - another historical occurance along the Central Asia (China silk) routes.

[Daniel Bistman]

I absolutely agree with Diodorus Silicus.
A bigger infraestructure in your city permits more units to trade.
I dont agree with Flavor Dave: the caravans that moves add a LOT of micromanagement, why? because you not just need to "send them", also you have to see the needs of every city, when you have a hundred cities, you see the needs of one city and you "don't remember" if a caravan is incoming. Also, what's the difference between a caravan with ten units of food that arrives in ten turn, and an unit of food automaticly coming every turn?
PILLAGE: I think that pillage can be done if one enemy unit places in the "line" of trade, that blocks supplies. In case of sea "lines of trade", a fleet in the zone cause a percentage of sucess every turn (depends).

I think that trade lines must be possible with NAVIGATION/TRADE, but the improvements must have a low capacity, with INDUSTRIALIZATION/RAILROAD there's a boom on transports.

[Daniel Bistman]

Production:
I think production must be resumed on FOOD and RAW MATERIALS (instead of shield)

Also, production should not come from shields but from the workforce.
Also, population should not grow with "food deposits full" but with birth.
In this way, and with a good fluid commerce between cities, we can have bigger cities with more production (as in reality)

What do you think?

[Daniel Bistman]

NO! raw materials should not be divided on different types, if will include a lot of senseless complexity.
If raw materials are divided in types (petrol, wood, steel, iron, textiles) we will spend the most of our time trying to optimize production. The guys ho played Imperialism understand that, in Imperialism is fabulous, but you cannot manage a hundred cities in that way.

[Eggman]

Daniel, a way to get around that is to have a certain number of "key" materials that your civ needs on an empire level. The materials would be stuff like copper, iron, uranium, oil, rubber, etc. and what you need and how much of it can vary depending on the timeframe. Your entire empire would need X units of each material a turn. If your empire can't produce the materials on its own, it needs to trade for them or, worse case, perhaps buy them at outrageous prices from the "black market". If the civ cannot get the minimum supply it needs, it takes penalties civilization wide (production and military comes to mind) and/or cannot build certain units and structures. Of course, if you have a surplus, the materials are worth big money to trade.

With just two or three materials per era, this could do a good job of simulating the need for vital materials. If you can't get them (see Japan after the US cut off its oil supply in WWII) you are going to fall behind which forces war. It also allows a civ to capture and/or cut off key materials and devastate a civ economically. Run out of oil - production drops by 50% - OUCH! Stockpiling in case of war is a good idea too. Plus, the demand for those key materials would grow as the civilization gets bigger (more cities) so you would need to make sure that you can secure those resources to expand (death to ICS!).

In addition, you keep the standard group of trade goods which are used solely for money. Stuff like wine, gems, silk, etc. would just be traded (like normal) for cash money. Preferrably in a more automated way (like CTP).

Of course, key to all this is that the key materials don't show up on the map until they are demanded. Hence, no cities setup next to uranium deposits in the Bronze Age thinking several thousand years ahead...

On a somewhat unrelated topic, I think that those material squares should come in "normal" and "rich" (and maybe "very rich") varieties. Yeah, that hill might have grapes (wine) but it also might be the best grapes in whole darn world (lots of wine). You may have gold or the mother load of gold in that mountain. This allows for more trade without cluttering the whole map with special squares (like Imperialism).

[Pythagoras]

NO MORE POSTS!! CLOSE THREAD PLEASE!
I will have a summary thread up shortly, and am proceding to create a v1.1 thread (its'about time!)

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"I think you're all f*cked in the head!"
Chevy Chase-Nat'l Lampoon's Vacation.