Announcement

**Shining1** · May 20, 1999, 21:34

Snowfire: At last a rational mind in this thread. Thank god.

Yeah, I like the idea of having discrete values to the levels of tech - just like city improvements take a certain number of shields to build.

To counter problems with this, I suggest that maybe there be a limit set on the maximum number of points your civilisation can generate per turn - reflecting the fact that putting 100% effort into science results in no more result than 30% - once you have all the good minds and required structures, it still takes time to process the math.

This limit is of course a floating one, increasing according to population, and possibly some city improvements or wonders.

To everyone else: PLEASE! This is a game! The system must be simple and have a large degree of choice (enforced choice - not just 'check all the boxes' stuff) to it - if the player is not in control, it becomes uninteresting no matter how realistic it seems. Keep it FUN.

**Shining1** · May 20, 1999, 21:39

Above post as a reply to the thread system suggestions that involved excessive numbers of variables or allowed no choice for the player - these points should be taken into consideration for any working system.

**SnowFire** · May 20, 1999, 23:10

I'm going to explain #34 perhaps a bit deeper: in real life, this would somewhat equate to Eisenhower focusing on math and science more in the schools to "Catch up" with the more advanced Russians who were launching Sputnik at the time while American rockets were blowing up on the launch pad. The result wasn't instant; but given a few years, with encouragement and more scholarships being given to majors in science and other technology that was emphasized in the program, as well as more student work in the field, creates a stronger generation of scientists in that field for the next generation. The reason why you can't just focus 100% one field at a time, like in Civ, is because the massive efficiency hit taken, as well as the even worse efficiency hit when you try to change to 100% focus in another field, will result in terrible research rates. That's your inspiration not to "focus" too much.

Now, this is some more refinement of this idea. The question is- what if my economists are happily researching along. They've just discovered their next economics tech and- gasp- there is nothing left to research. Actually, there's plenty left to research, you just don't have their prerequisites from other fields yet. Well, when you run into areas like this, there should be "bonus" or "accessory" techs to research in each field, if we really are going to have tons of techs after all. These can and probably will be leapfrogged by other civs with a more well-rounded approach or a de-emphasis on that category. The result is that my civilization that never focused much on Agriculture might get refrigeration, but never have had an opportunity to have gotten some extra, helpful technologies in the field that are now gone forever, too far behind in the tech charts. Perhaps this crosses the line of "too" complex; oh well.

This can also be enhanced with the "dedicate" feature that was mentioned before, but in an unrefined form (you could dedicate to at least 6 disciplines in the old system). When I build a library, I give it a discipline for it to have a focus to. Now, let's say my city makes 10 science, and I dedicate my library to psychology. The city still gets 5 more science points. And let's say that in the entire empire, 50 science points are dedicated to psychology every turn. By some formula, the number of bonus points from libraries (so libraries in big cities count more) are added up and made into an extra bonus, so you get an extra boost to topics you dedicate your libraries to. When you build a University, you can add another discipline to be studied at that city that then gets bonus points outside the standard +50% bonus. This would sort of include #22, except that it's not like you lose all your nuclear research; it's just that the city with the nuclear power plant and had built "Isaac Newton's Library" (+300% to Physics research in this city, +20% throughout empire) isn't producing massive amounts of physics science for you anymore.

Another idea on the other suggestions so far: #1 depends on the unit system, whether it will be modeled off of SMAC or CivII. If it's off of SMAC, we very well may end up with "Fanatic Spearmen" (3-2-1 costs 200 resources). So that's really up to the "units" thread people more than us.

**Shining1** · May 21, 1999, 01:20

Hmmmm. Offshoot techs. An interesting idea. Perhaps it could be considered as after-shocks from the main line of research - stuff that crops up after the discovery of one tech but before the discovery of another.

An extra list of techs and small inventions that occur truely randomly, benefitting a player only occasionally - not in every game.

So, you research something like 'seafaring'. You get triemes, or whatever (some naval chassis). Then you get a minor discovery event, and you discover 'sail making'. All your triemes get a +1 bonus to movement as a result.

Since each event has a small probability of occuring, and can ONLY occur immediately after you finish researching its prereq tech (these minor techs have only one prereq), this keeps them down to a minor, but significant, roll in the game.

They also add a great deal to the game in terms of historical immersion, and can be used to add historical weight to racial differences (without doing SMAC stuff and implying that the persians are naturally bad at trade).

For instance, the english had the longbow - no one else got it, because it was superceded by the rifle quite soon afterwards. So making 'long bow' a random minor tech that the british always receive adds character to that race.

So - two so far:
Seafaring - Sail making
Warrior code - longbow

Comments? Suggestions? Other minor techs people like?

**Shining1** · May 21, 1999, 01:33

Issue from the City Interface thread:

It was suggested that worker units be able to be upgraded to more sophisticated workers for each square - farmers, miners, traders, etc. Each of these units will require a requistie technology, something that CivII did not do - irrigation, mines, and roads were already available at the start of the game (a good thing, but this means you never get to research argiculture or mining type techs properly). Now that there is a reason to have those techs, they need to be included in some form.

**Koyaanisqatsi** · May 21, 1999, 04:10

Updating, integrating, assimilating, and generally 'ing'-ing all over the place, here's a revised version of the complete tech scheme I described in a previous thread, with various commentary and other stuff I threw in just 'cause I felt like it. New terminology is italicized, so we at least know what we're talking about should anyone want to discuss anything. As always, comments, ideas, revisions, etc., are welcome, and will be incorporated into my future thinking, as I've already done with a bunch of other ideas. Along those lines, a good deal of these aren't my ideas, but I thought they were good so I integrated them.

(Note: All numbers are for discussion purposes only, and most likely wouldn't be used in the game.)

-----------------------------

The Technology Cloud System

<a name="toc">Sections:</a>

<a href="#overview">1. Overview</a>
<a href="#prereq">2. Prerequisites</a>
<a href="#research">3. Research</a>
<a href="#modules">4. Modules</a>
<a href="#misc">5. Other Thoughts</a>
<a href="#examples">6. Mathematical Examples</a>

<a name="overview">Section 1: Overview</a>
I think the tech system from CivII wasn't bad, but it's also possible to use technologies as more than a way to limit when you can build when. As things are now, there's not a whole lot of strategy to picking your techs, except in those cases where you're presented with two techs that you need right this second, and have to choose one to pursue. The system I'm building from my ideas and the ones in these threads adds more strategy and long-term planning potential to the game, and integrates with gameplay much more than the current system.
<a href="#toc">Back to Sections</a>

<a name="prereq">Section 2: Prerequisites</a>
A large part of this research system is regulated by the use of prerequisites, or more specifically, prerequisite points. Prerequisite points are points you get for doing something that moves you closer to being able to research a technology. This is actually just an expanded version of the prerequisite system in place in CivII, where you (usually) had two prerequisites for each technology. If you translated the CivII tech tree into the prereq point system, it would work like this: Each technology requires two prereq points before you can begin researching it. Each of its prerequisites provides one of these points, so by researching both prereqs, the point requirement (or Research Threshold) is fulfilled and you can begin researching the new technology.

This system expands on that tech tree by offering more ways to get prereq points than just researching two prerequisite technologies. First, it allows you to get prereq points (PPs) from two types of technology prerequisites: Direct Prereqs, and Related Technologies. A direct prereq works just like the prereqs in CivII. Every technology has two direct prereqs. Each one provides you with half the PPs necessary to start research on your goal tech, so if you get both direct prereqs, you can start research immediately. Related technologies work the same way, but provide only half the PPs of a direct prereq (thus you need four related techs to begin research on your goal tech.) Any combination of direct prereqs and related technologies that add up to the research threshold allows you to begin research (<a href="#examples">ex. 1</a>).

Unlike the CivII world though, in real life the research efforts of any particular civilization do not exist in a vacuum. To reflect this, there are more ways to gain PPs that just prerequisite technologies, and any combination of them that adds up to the research threshold allows you to begin research. [Logistical note: Each technology stores its PPs separately, so it is possible to get PPs on techs your civ hasn't even imagined yet, and still have them apply once you've advanced enough to worry about beginning research.] First, if you capture an enemy unit that requires the goal tech, you get a PP toward that technology. (Ed.--This solves the problem of reverse engineering a technology, which there's been call for since the original Civ. There's a bit of built-in game balancing though, because instead of actually giving you the tech, it just contributes a prereq point.) You also get PPs for capturing an enemy city. Espionage is another source of stealing PPs from an opponent.

In addition to theft and pillaging, cooperation between civs can help you gain PPs as well. For instance, if you are in good diplomatic standing with a more advanced civ, their technologies will slowly bleed off to you in the form of PPs. The same goes for trade between two civs of different tech levels. (<a href="#examples">ex. 2</a>) This tech bleed is only a function of your diplomatic relations and the relative tech levels of your civs, though, and is completely automated. In fact, you can't prevent it at all, so this feature tends to keep any one player from getting a huge tech lead on the rest of the world (or at least, once they get it, it's hard to maintain.) There are limits to how far you can advance in a certain amount of time, though. Every technology falls into one of 10 or 15 technological eras. These eras begin when a breakthrough technology is discovered, like gunpowder, industrialization, etc. No matter how may prereq points you gain from other civs, you can't begin research on any tech from an era more advanced than your own. So, even if you have lived next door to a culture with jet aircraft, you can't begin research on them when your most advanced technology is chivalry.

Overall, the purpose behind prereq points is to add variety to the tech tree. Since there are multiple paths to any given tech, and even paths that don't require any immediate prerequisite technologies at all, there's no 'path of least resistance' up the tech tree like there is in CivII. You can still play the tech tree using only the direct prereqs, and it will look just like the CivII tree, but there is the option of adding more variety if you want it. On the other hand, since any given source of PPs can be turned off without affecting the entire system, there can be the option turning off or modifying a particular source. Say you don't want to be able to reverse engineer captured units. Just shut it off in a text file or in a config menu, and it's gone. Or, you can make tech bleed faster on different levels of difficulty just by changing a few numbers. It's a flexible system that you can do as little or as much with as you like.
<a href="#toc">Back to Sections</a>

<a name="research">Section 3: Research</a>
Research is where you actually start applying all those research points your cities are producing. Under the tech cloud system, though, your research efforts aren't restricted to a single technology at a time. Instead, you can do parallel research, splitting your research points between 3 techs at once (and Basic Theory, which is described in <a href="#modules">modules</a>.) These three techs can come from any category, they aren't restricted like in MoO. The reason for parallel research (besides providing for basic theory) is to allow for Research Synergy. Research synergy occurs when you are researching two or more Related Techs (Ed.--The same related techs that are used in PPs?). By simultaneously researching complimentary technologies, you develop both of them faster. For instance, if you researched Calculus and Physics at the same time, the research points applied to each would get a 10% bonus (<a href="#examples">ex. 3</a>).

Allocating research points to your 3 techs and theory is done with a set of sliders in your research screen. The default is sending 25% of your total points to each research project. You can set the sliders to any percentage of your total research points, but shifting points from one project to another incurs a temporary penalty as your scientists are taken off their current projects and set loose on another one. This penalty does not apply when transferring points to basic theory, but it does apply when taking them from theory and applying them to other research (<a href="#examples">ex. 4</a>.)
<a href="#toc">Back to Sections</a>

<a name="modules">Section 4: Modules</a>
Modules are concepts that I think sound good and would fit into this system, but it would probably be best if not all of them are added to the system, to keep the complexity from getting out of hand.

Basic Theory: Basic Theory is another slider that you can allocate a percentage of your research points to every turn. The amount of research points you spend on theory ends up giving you a bonus to the tech points on the techs you're researching, but it acts as a function of your theory points vs. the total research points you've produced. This forces you to decide between immediate gratification and long-term benefit (<a href="#examples">ex. 5</a>.)

Specialized Buildings: Specialized buildings are city improvements that provide science bonuses only to certain categories of research. When you build a high-tech building, you dedicate it to a specific branch of research at build time. Each city can only have one building, dedicated to a single field (for instance, building a Sociology Lab and a Physics Lab in the same city aren't permitted. Limiting them to one per city means that a particular building/city could be very important to you--that could be the only city giving you a bonus in life sciences, and if you lose it, you're in big trouble. However, lower-tech buildings can provide bonuses smaller bonuses to more research categories (<a href="#examples">ex. 6</a>.)

Randomized Applications: Researching a technology doesn't have the same result every game. In one game, it may give you a new weapon, and in the next, you might get a new building. Which you get would be locked in when you start the game, to avoid save/resume cheats. I'm sorta shaky on this one, though, I don't know if it's a good idea or not.
<a href="#toc">Back to Sections</a>

<a name="misc">Section 5: Other Thoughts</a>
-Spontaneous tech migration. After enough (a lot) of contact between two cultures at different tech levels, a tech owned by the advanced civ might spontaneously be discovered by the lower one. Unlike tech bleed, this is not limited by technological era.
-Under any tech system, there is a need for a good tech viewer. I'd suggest something like Magnifind, a 3d file viewer (<a href="http://www.inxight.com/MagniFind.htm">www.inxight.com/maginfind.htm</a>)
-This system will require quite a few techs . . . I'm guessing probably 1.5 times as many as CivII.
-Specialized buildings could be replaced with other buildings dedicated to a certain type of tech. Barracks for military techs, temples for sociology techs, etc.
<a href="#toc">Back to Sections</a>

<a name="examples">Section 6: Mathematical Examples</a>

Included for clarity purposes . . .
1. Direct Prerequisites and Related Technologies.

Goal: Crossbow (research threshold: 12 PPs)
Direct Prereqs: Longbow, Recurved Bow (6 PPs)
Related Technologies: Spear, Sling (3 PPs)

Possible combinations of techs: Longbow(6) + Recurved Bow(6), Longbow(6) + Spear(3) + Sling(3), Recurved Bow(6) + Spear(3) + Sling(3).

2. Other Sources of PPs

Spear(3) + Sling(3) + Diplomacy [(3)*(6)/(5) = (3.6) --> (3)] + Trade [(15)*(6)/(30) = (3)] = 12 points
Longbow(6) + Captured Archers (3) + Captured Archers (3) = 12 points
Recurved Bow(6) + Captured London(6) = 12 points
etc . . .

3. Synergetic Research

You are currently researching Calculus, Physics, and Gunpowder. Your empire generates 1000 research points per turn. Calculus and Physics each require 5000 points, and Gunpowder requires 7500. You decide to dedicate 25% of your research points to each of the technologies, and 25% to Theory.

Calculus and Physics are related techs, so you get a 10% bonus to the 250 points both techs are getting that turn. Gunpowder is a base technology, so there are no related techs for Gunpowder.

You also have embassies with 3 empires that already have Calculus, and are on good diplomatic standing with them, so you get another 15% bonus on Calculus. Two of those empires also have Physics, so you get a 10% bonus on that as well. Nobody has Gunpowder yet.

So, for this turn, here's how your research ends up:

Physics: 250 points (25% of 1000 total this turn) + 10% related tech bonus + 10% Diplomatic bonus = 250 + (250*.2)=300 points.

Calculus: 250 points (25% of 1000 total this turn) + 10% related tech bonus + 15% Diplomatic bonus = 250 + (250*.25)=312 points.

Gunpowder: 250 points (25% of 1000 total this turn) = 250 points.

4. Shifting Research

You are currently researching Calculus, Physics, and Gunpowder at 25% per, and Theory at 25%. You decide you need Gunpowder right this second, so you set Calculus and Physics at 10% each, Gunpowder at 80%, and Theory at 0%. The only tech that increased in Gunpowder, and it increased by 55%. You get 1/4 of this increase each turn for the next 4 turns, with the rest wasted.

Turn 1: 1000 points produced total, 25% goes to each category. Everything gets 250 points.
Turn 2: 1000 points produced total, 10% goes to Calculus and Physics, 38% goes to Gunpowder, the rest is waste.
Turn 3: 1000 points produced total, 10% goes to Calculus and Physics, 52% goes to Gunpowder, the rest is waste.
Turn 4: 1000 points produced total, 10% goes to Calculus and Physics, 66% goes to Gunpowder, the rest is waste.

Turn 5: 1000 points produced total, 10% goes to Calculus and Physics, 80% goes to Gunpowder.

5. Basic Theory Bonus

The Theory Bonus is based on the total percentage of Theory points gathered vs. the total number of research points your empire has produced. Say you're on turn two. On the first turn, you generated 1000 research points, even distribution, which means 250 of them went to Theory. You do this for ten turns, so after the tenth turn you have 2500 Theory points, and your empire has generated a total of 10000 research points. Your Theory bonus is double (total Theory points/total Research points) thus 50%. (This is a good investment, because your 50% bonus on each of three techs has given you a total of (250+.50))*(3 techs per turn) *10turns= 3750 Theory bonus points, for an investment of 2500 Research points. Then, you decide to redistribute your research so that each tech gets 1/3 of your Research points each turn, and Theory gets none. You go like this for another 10 turns. Now, your Theory bonus on turn 21 is 2*(2500 total Theory points/20000 total Research points) which is 25%. If you then returned to even distribution for another 10 turns, the bonus is 2*(5000 total Theory points/30000 total Research points) which is 33.2%. So, you have to maintain your investment in base Theory, or the Theory bonus starts to lose potency.

6. Specialized Buildings

There are currently three science buildings in CivII: Library, University, and Research Lab. Under this system, every Library would provide a 25% bonus to research points applied to all technologies. Universities in each city must be declared to study two technological fields, and provides each a 50% bonus. Research Labs in each city are declared to only one field, but they give a 100% bonus to all research points in that field.

[This message has been edited by Bell (edited May 21, 1999).]

**the Octopus** · May 21, 1999, 11:37

I want to re-emphasize that people should try (as I am at least trying to do ) to keep my comments as "Thread Master" and my personal opinions separate. The only thing that will cause or prevent an item from being included in the list will be "public opinion", which I personally only contribute 1/n of, where n is the number of posters in these threads. If an idea is widely condemned, I may remove it from the list, but few things are likely to get removed (although some might be consolidated or altered for clarity, or something).

I hope that nobody is afraid to disagree with me in my personal opinions. Who knows, you might even change my mind . I'll also point out that nobody should be intimidated by somebody else's long post, or by their style, or even by their popular support. We want to hear all voices here, and voices of criticism are welcome. Criticism almost always results in a superior "product" in the end. I want this to be the best list that it can possibly be, because I want Civ III to be the best game it can possibly be.

If anyone has any questions, concerns, criticisms, suggestions, etc. about how individual threads or the entire list process can be improved please do not hesitate to inform yin, me, or any of the other thread masters.

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CIV3-THE MASTER LIST-TECHNOLOGY "THREAD MASTER"

**yin26** · May 21, 1999, 11:54

Bell,

Your summary is beautiful. It's like a work of art. When the time comes, I will direct the Thread Masters to that post for ideas on organizing their topic summaries. I'm still studying your codes to see how you did it all!

Octopus,

Very nicely said. It is difficult to image how much room there is here for us to screw this up by yelling and screaming and pushing for our own ideas. Octopus has proven himself to be most willing to take criticism and reaffirm his commitment to teamwork.

We all appreciate that, Octopus. Keep up the great work with this thread.

Yin

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CIV3 DEVELOPMENT LIST COORDINATOR

**(un)Officially Making Lists for Firaxis Since SMAC Enhancement 3!**

**Utrecht** · May 21, 1999, 13:07

Thinking about the ideas of having civ specific technologies (and by extension units).

This would certainly provide differntiation between the various civs. However, the need to develop certain techs was very location dependent.

For example: the Nordic people were an exceptionally talented seafaring race. However if in Civ they are placed in the middle of Asia, thier "bonus" would not necesarily make sense.

Instead I would like to expand on a previous posters concept of location depenent/trait tech.

There will be numerous "tech classes" that are assigned to a civ when they are placed onto the map, in effect becomming an attribute of that civ.

Examples of this could be

1) Seafaring
2) Trading
3) Bueracratic
4) Miliaristic
5) Agricultural

Thus, when a civ is placed on the map, they would get 1 tech from its "specialty" and is more likely to be presented with technologies from their specialty and recieve a moderate (10%) bonus to the research.

This bonus would disappear at the modern age since information sharing made these specialization less important.

**Imran Siddiqui** · May 21, 1999, 14:27

Hey Octopus, thanks for thinking highly enough of my historical tech idea to put it in the Thread Summerary. Of course it'd be your choice wheather or not to pick that mode of research.

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Imran Siddiqui
Moderator SG Forums - www.sidgames.com/forums/ ,

"Sir, I would rather be right than be President."

-Henry Clay

**Koyaanisqatsi** · May 21, 1999, 15:32

The Octopus writes:
I'll also point out that nobody should be intimidated by somebody else's long post, or by their style, or even by their popular support.

Yes, I'm not trying to intimidate or bully anyone with some of my longer posts, I'm just putting forth my idea of how the overall system would work using some of the ideas posted. Please, feel free to add to or trash or generally ignore anything in those posts. I'm putting them up to generate discussion on the ideas they contain, not to kill of everything else.

**SnowFire** · May 21, 1999, 16:05

Utrecht: I can see different leaders for each civilization, but different characterizations from the start will be difficult for a large number of civs and probably offensive. Best to keep with leader personalities and nothing more.

Bell: A few things. I for one don't like the "synergy" effect you describe. In fact, I would say something of the opposite. I'd give the bonus only after discovering a technology to then working on the other field. Physics is a lot easier with calculus, so I say give the bonus to calculus after you're done researching physics. Besides, you're suggesting once again that you can set 66% of your civilization to all be mathematicians and scientists when they aren't going to be. I could understand CivI's abstraction of technology, but I was hoping for a more realistic, well-rounded system in CivIII. How my system would work it would be "Discovery of elementary physics speeds all physics research by 5%" and "Discovery of calculus speeds all physics research by 5%." Otherwise, you're forcing the player to do their technologies and groups of three of the same technology to get maximum benefit. It shouldn't be like that. I'll pitch my system again- 4 or 5 categories (tentatively philosophy, psychology, math & physics, agriculture & biology, and economics) of science and a set percentage of scientists dedicated to that field (realistic, after all). Each bar would be researching one technology within it's field. And there would be "inertia" when changing them (see #34).

Plus, your "prerequisite points" system won't really work unless you truly have a vast array of technology that absolutely requires leapfrogging of techs in order to get ahead. Who is going to have the longbow and recurved bow, but not have the spear and sling? The end result is that this system would allow a lot more leapfrogging in the tree- do I need my longbows now, or skip them and research for crossbows instead? In order for there to be any choice at all, you would have to have set technology points for levels (not CivI & II's simple exponential scale that didn't differentiate between difficulty), and I bet the computer would have a tough time with a system like that.

Your tech bleed system I don't like either. I'm all for tech bleed, but instead of just letting you research it (which is not a problem at all in most cases of roughly technology-equal civs anyway) by giving you more prereq points, it should provide a bonus in cost. That diplomatic contact should reduce the cost by ((Gold Changed hands)*(treaty level)*(A really small number to keep it manageable))percentage points per turn. Defeating an enemy unit with that technology nets a bonus of anywhere from 5-25% of the points off of that technology, depending on the roll of the dice and the difference in technology. When spies attempt to steal technology, instead of stealing everything outright, they may only steal plans to get you 50% there, and you have to research the rest yourself. Same with capturing a city- you can get anywhere from 0-50% on any technologies of that civ. When you have a 100% bonus on researching the item (and still haven't bothered to), you get it for free.

Also, going back to the disciplines thing, I wouldn’t quite call them "Sociology labs," etc. I would have, in the beginning, just the basic library, and you could dedicate it to any of the 5 disciplines. Next is your university, and you add another discipline to focus in. I’d kill the "research lab" of CivII and then add things similar to your ideas, like "Nuclear Power Plant: (Basic effect with resources.) Speeds physics research in city, if it has a library or university dedicated to it, by 50%. Or "Stock Market: (basic money effect). Increases economics research by 50%, if city is dedicated to that discipline." "Capitol: Government center, blah blah. Increases philosophy research by 100% in city." "Hospital: Increases population growth by 15%, makes two drones content. Increases biology research in city by 25% if yada yada yada." You get the idea.

Octopus: Kill 8 & 11, and add the "Categories of science" idea in a separate number of its own. If you use my system (not that you have to), the arts would be covered under the psych category. Also, 22 is sort of already in Civ II, unless you want to count actually losing the science researched by the people in the city, which is an idea I really don't like. I also suggest that 21, 23, 24, and 31 be changed to integrate them better. Ex: "24- "Dedication" of science buildings. When a library or university is built, you dedicate it to one of the categories of science, so each city may have two research focuses*. Some modern buildings, in the era of increased specialization, will add bonuses to research as well, but only if the city is dedicated to the proper discipline. Ex: A Nuclear Power Plant helps physics research if the city is a prestigious center of physics research, and the capitol insures that the capitol is a main governmental/philosophical center with a bonus to philosophy. As time marches on, cities can become very specialized, unlike the philosopher of old."

That last sentence should probably be deleted for the actual letter, but I wanted to tie 21 in a bit more clearly.

On 25- I prefer having a "ratio." Early on, you may only get 1 "directed" tech to every 3 "random" techs, but as time marches on, you get better and better control over where your society heads. Besides, depending on how much the AI cheats in the early game, direct control over techs early on might be too vital to give up. So your choices at the beginning of the game would be directed research, historical research (using the ratio instead of the awkward jump), and blind research.

I’d change 26 to combine with 38 to read "Random Events- Events occur that give specialized bonuses and penalties in science that are historical. For instance, "Pasteur establishes lab in Paris! Biology research +100% there for next 20 turns, and Paris gets 10% bonus permenantly," or "Einstein sets up lab in Princeton! Physics research increased by 150% there for next 25 turns."

I have no problem with 37. I liked that feature in SMAC, though the AI should have put a greater emphasis on Gene Splicing, Eco. Engineering, and Environmental Economics, since those 2 techs were so vital to win the game (as a builder, at least). It should be changed a bit though, and governments should step in and play a role.

*Actually foci, but who uses that term?

[This message has been edited by SnowFire (edited May 21, 1999).]

**EnochF** · May 21, 1999, 16:27

(See, this is why I want to start a separate Future Technology topic. This one is filled with incredibly long, point-by-point descriptions of complex new systems which completely redefine the nature of the technology tree. If there happen to be a handful of future tech ideas buried in all this, it would be a pain to go searching for them, and they'd probably be ignored anyway. I realize Future Tech wouldn't generate as many responses as Technology. That's why I'm volunteering to start a separate thread! I don't envy Octopus for having to summarize all the systems being invented here. I'd rather just suggest some specific technologies, refine and/or redefine the future tech as presented in Civ II and Call to Power, and try to come up with something we can all live with. In short, I want Future Tech to be something more than an afterthought in our suggestions.)

[This message has been edited by EnochF (edited May 21, 1999).]

**the Octopus** · May 21, 1999, 16:51

"If there happen to be a handful of future tech ideas buried in all this, it would be a pain to go searching for them, and they'd probably be ignored anyway."

Fear not, EnochF. As Thread Master I shall make sure that any and all coherent ideas appear in at least one summary. A proposal for a specific technology would definitely make it. Look at the "Music" example. If you don't want to search through the thread, wait for the next summary. I'll tell you now (to save you the suspense) that nobody has been suggesting many specific technologies, and no future techs have been suggested at all.

"This one is filled with incredibly long, point-by-point descriptions"

All kinds of posts have a place here. Bell and SnowFire are contributing in the way that they feel most comfortable. I think both new systems and new "little things" are important suggestions.

"I'd rather just suggest some specific technologies"

You don't need permission, just start posting.

"In short, I want Future Tech to be something more than an afterthought in our suggestions."

In the near future, I plan to break my summary into three different sections. One section will deal with the tech tree (the place for the prerequisite systems), one section will deal with the research process (the place for things like SnowFire's system, #34), and a third section for specific technological suggestions. The kind of things you want to talk about (I think) will show up there. I promise you that I will make every effort to ensure that every suggestion is treated fairly.

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