WONDERS (ver1.0): Hosted by EnochF

[EnochF]

Okay, we now begin in the List of Ideas for Firaxis section. Sometime soon I'll post a fairly adequate summary of the big ideas everybody seems to like in the Wonder Department.

[kmj]

meowser: to add a little to your ideas from the other thread.... (the way I see it)

Natural wonders would be discovered through exploration.

A city would see the benefits of this wonder either a) as soon as it's built or b)when it reaches a certain size

Another possible wonder is (if you have underwater cities) the marianas trench.

[EnochF]

Summary begins here. I don't promise to represent everyone's ideas perfectly, but the original thread will stay in the Suggestions category for several months, and anybody can speak up and clarify themselves if they want to.

Ecce Homo: World's Greatest Improvement, a wonder-like game concept in which every city improvement has a corresponding World's Greatest that civs can compete to build
(many agree)

Enoch: Programmable wonders, the effects of which can be changed by players in game files.

Enoch: Visible wonders, which appear on the map in the city radius.
(several agree)

Ufa: Random negative side effects for powerful wonders.
(several agree)

KMJ: A wonders on/off option
(many agree)

Pythagoras: Limited timespan for World's Greatest (i.e., world's greatest marketplace provides no benefit upon discovery of banking)

Enoch: Constant, rather than random, negative effects for wonders.

Sieve Too: Diverse wonders in the early game, to avoid one civ building all wonders.

Sieve Too: Internet wonder, benefits for all civs with Computers advance
(many agree)

Meowser: No two cities can build the same wonder at the same time, no switching production midway

KMJ: Suggests bidding on World's Greatest, limited to one attempt per improvement per civ

Eggman: Evolving wonder effects as ages progress
(several agree)

Eggman: Maintenance costs for aging wonders

Eggman: Variable wonder effects dependent on government, state of war, age, etc.

Diodorus: Land engineering wonders, i.e. Great Canal, Polders, etc.

Enoch: Suggests wonders provide tourism gold upon becoming obsolete
(several agree)

Meowser: Suggests limited re-buildable wonders: only an option in a "race" to build a wonder; the second civ to build receives a happiness bonus rather than the standard wonder effect

Mr. Temba: Suggests seven wonders per age

Zorloc: Suggests wonder effects "phase out" rather than abruptly go obsolete

Trachmyr: Suggests game variable "culture," which is in large part defined by the wonders a civilization builds

Zakalwe: Suggests time delay for receiving benefits of a captured wonder, also a lower Civ score for captured wonders

Cybershy: Lists the original seven wonders; suggests more limited game effects; suggests wonders have unknowable effects (random, I suppose); argues against "races" to build wonders; several points raised, including local wonder effects, such as the Lighthouse

Cybershy: Suggests natural wonders
(several agree)

Stefu: Suggests less Eurocentric wonders
(several agree)

Stefu: Suggests separate wonder types, Economic, Monument, Scientific, Social, etc.
(several agree)

Meowser: Suggests "visible wonders" be vulnerable to attack (pillage)

Meowser: Suggests wonders be tied to specific civilizations (no Egyptians = no Pyramids)

Meowser: Suggests cooperation on wonder building; allied civs receive mutual wonder benefits
(many agree on other threads)

LIST OF NEW SUGGESTED WONDERS:
Abu Simbel
The Almagest (Ptolemy's Almagest)
Angel Falls
Angkor Wat
The Aswan Dam
The Aztec Temple in Tenochtitlan
Banaue Rice Terraces
The Bay of Fundy
Borobudur Temple
The Channel Tunnel
The Clock Tower (Big Ben)
The CN Tower
The Colosseum
Drugs
Empire State Building
Fedreal Bureau of Investigation
The Gateway Arch
The Grand Canyon
The Great Barrier Reef
The Great Canal
Great General Staff (Großer Generalstab)
Iguaçú Falls
The Iliad
Itaipú Dam
Krakatoa Island
The Leaning Tower
Lucasfilm
Machu Pichu
The Marianas Trench
The Mausoleum
The Mayan Temples of Mikal
The Moai Statues
Mont-Saint-Michel
Mt. Everest
Mt. Fuji
Mt. Kilimanjaro
Mt. Rushmore
Niagara Falls
The Olympic Games
Paricutin Volcano
The Parthenon
Petra
The Petronas Towers
The Polders
The Shwedagon Pagoda
Statue of Zeus
Statue of Cristo Redentor
Sydney Opera House
Taj Mahal
Temple of Artemis
Temple of the Inscriptions
The Throne Hall of Persepolis
Tycho Brahe's Observatory (Uranienborg)
Victoria Falls

[anachron]

Regarding the Human Genome Project wonder - I agree this should be part of the game, but I think it should also have potentially negative military ramifications, in much the same way as the Manhattan Project did in
CivII. The fear with the HGP is that it would be possible to construct a virus affecting only members of a certain ethnicity - this would mean the possibility of wiping out an entire civilization. This is also one factor that was missing from the previous civ series' - epidemics.

I also don't think the Internet should be a wonder, because it is international in nature. Rather, it should be part of the technology tree. It would certainly be interesting to give it the "Great Library" effect, however - and historically accurate, imo. Research-sharing between nations, with the exception of military research (this
exception could also be incorporated), has become an accepted fact of international education. Using the Internet as a late-stage technology leveller would be, imo, better than having it as a wonder exclusive to a
particular civilization.

I like the nature wonders idea, but having them turned on and off seems unrealistic - being able to destroy them through war or pollution would be more practical. And if any wonders should have permanent effects, it should be these ones.

Also, the Olympic Games is an excellent idea - I can't believe it was skipped over in prior incarnations. A question though - should it be the early Olympics or the modern Olympics? I think it should be the latter, with strong diplomatic benefits. The stature of the early Olympics was not that of a wonder of the world.

I would also like to add my voice to those pointing out that too many wonders is not a good idea - it ruins the uniqueness of them (hence my point about the Internet).

A

[EnochF]

Anachron: Thanks for reposting in this thread.

Internet: I would be equally willing to allow the Internet as a technological advance or as a wonder which benefits all civilizations with Computers.

One loophole just occurred to me, if the Internet is a wonder. A highly developed nation could impede the technological progress of its enemies by building the Internet in a small, size-1 city, and then disband the city and utterly destroy the Internet. Utterly unrealistic. So, that's one argument in favor of Internet as a tech advance.

Genome Project: That's an idea. I've already posted a fairly consistent system of how to integrate disease into game play as a new game variable. Large cities with too high a disease score would enter into "quarantine," which is kind of like rioting except the population goes down and all trade routes are cut off. Genome could effectively cause cities to go into quarantine. Spies could do it, too, through poisoning the water supply. Maybe an "infector" unit, as per Call to Power, wouldn't be an unbalancing game effect either.

[kmj]

I must say that I dislike the idea of pinning certain wonders down to specific civ's (pyramids = egyptions, as described above)
While I would like each civ to have it's own personality, I feel that this leans toward the "special benefits" ala SMAC factions, something that I would HATE to see in CivIII. This should be a completely open-ended game, with every civ (assuming equal starting position) has an equal chance of winning. Maybe this would be okay as an option. I like options, they maximize consumer satisfaction.

On the internet: Lots of good ideas. I can go with any of a number of different ways to implement this, (wonder, advance, maybe you have to build an ISP in your cities), but it should have a MAJOR affect on all or most civs in the game.

[EdCase]

Pinning Wonders to specific civs is DEFINITELY the wrong way to go.The concept is to REWRITE history not repeat it.
My 2 cents....when a wonder goes obsolete...let it add say 10% income to the building civ (10% of the city it is sited in that is) Because it will still be a wonder and attract tourists

[EnochF]

KMJ & EdCase: I tend to agree. I'm much more intrigued with Trachmyr's idea that Wonders effectively shape Culture, rather than Culture arbitrarily dictating Wonders. A culture that builds Copernicus and Newton but not Sun Tzu will receive military penalties and science bonuses, maybe, and will be well received by peaceful nations. That sort of thing. It would be like all civs begin the game completely undefined, no bonuses, like in Civ II, but gradually evolve into a more "faction"-like culture, like in SMAC, as the game progresses.

[Transcend]

Mount Fuji should never be counted as a wonder, this is just a very normal volcano. The only importance of that mountain is that is located close Tokyo-Yokohama. I would rather pick Tokyo-Yokohama as a wonder because it's the largest city in the world.

FBI is not a wonder. KGB, as both secret police and intelligence agency, was far more effective. Maybe we should take KGB instead.

Imperial Palace in Beijing is today the largest palace complex on earth. I would pick that palace as a wonder instead of Throne Hall in Persepolis.

Three Gorges Dam, if completed, should be counted as a wonder. This dam will several times larger than any existing dam on the world, since the reservoir it creats will displace one million people, raise the water level up to 70 meters, and generate electricty equivalent to dozens of nuclear power plants.

The Internet should replace SETI Program. The benefits of Internet are increases in happiness and research, the negative effect is increased vulnerability to spies.

Lucasfilm is too insignificant as a wonder. How about the Hollywood in general?

Drugs is a very interesting "wonder". I think this wonder will have both positive and negative sides, the positive being damages to all other civs, the negative being that everyone hates you.

Maybe we need to pick one canal out three: Panama, Suez, or Great Canal.

Anyway, those are my thoughts about individual wonders.

[EnochF]

Imperial Palace is already a wonder in Call to Power, indirectly: The Forbidden City.

I didn't make most of these suggestions, so I can't argue either way about drugs or Mt. Fuji...

I'm coming around to the KGB as a wonder instead of FBI, first because there are too many American wonders already, and second because it has more popular association with spies. However, I envisioned the FBI as a mostly internal wonder, one which protects against spies from outside, and I guess I've always conceived the KGB as an aggressive, international entity, secretly sparking revolutions hither and thither and inspiring the Truman Doctrine.

Hey, maybe this could be one of those government-dependent wonders like Eggman suggested. KGB can only be built and function in communism. As soon as the government changes, all KGB effects are lost...

[Ecce Homo]

I think many Wonders should benefit ALL civs in some way.

Examples:
The Wormhole Sensor in CTP - all civs can see the Wormhole after a few turns.

The Olympic Games - all civs can choose to participate. If they do, they get happier, but they cannot make war with the owner.

The Internet - all civs get benefits if they have Computers.

More suggested Wonders:
*The Stonehenge
*King Asoka's Edict (India, 3rd century. He had pillars raised all across the country to spread the message of peace.)
*Alfred Nobel's Foundation
*Mars Colony

[meowser]

Hmm? How about this. Wonders should not be made on a city wide basis but on a civilization wide basis. Your civ can build one wonder at a time (Wonders take a lot of time, resource and planning). When you have the necessary prerequisites, you'll be given an option to devote x% production units towards the wonder.

Since some wonders might be made that benefit only one city (for play balance) there should be some type of screen that ask you where the wonder will be built.

[Trachmyr]

My idea that WONDERS are used to make SOCIAL ENGINEERING CHOICES is discussed more indepth in the Social Engineering Thread.

But basically, Wonders that do not provide real advantages, help define the culture by generatin "Culture Points" similar to reaserch points, which are in turn used to activate SOCIAL ENGINEERING choices. After all, most wonder are testements to that civ, and help define that civ.

[mhistbuff]

What about these wonders:
The Great Bazaar: improves the benefits of trade routes or counts as a market place in every city or something like that.

The Tennesse Vally Authority: counts as a hydroelectric dam in every city or decreases time needed to irrigate or farm a piece of land.

[Mark_Everson]

*My first post in this thread*

My biggest gripe is play-balance of wonders. Wonders that give you an improvement for all your cities and never expire are Waaaaay too good a bargain. At A Minimum, wonders that never expire and give an improvement's benefit should cost 10x the improvement. Mich's C. and Hoover's are Especially imbalanced because not only do they cost only of order 5x the improvement's cost, but there is no maint. cost for the benefits.

------------------
Mark Everson
Project lead for The Clash of Civilizations
(That means I do the things nobody else wants to do )
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