Enemies. Does AI "Remember"?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Nakar Gabab

I've never seen Bismarck so happy, friendly, and open. I guess it's true what they say about the enemy of my enemy...

I've never seen him be anything other than a b@stard. This is quite strange.

At least the characters in Civ II are fairly predictable. I still laugh about having to deal with Ghandi in Civ I. Occasionally, he would go berserk and start behaving like Hitler.

[Arrian]

The AI is a whiny little *****. Kill them.

Not one of them can be trusted not to backstab you. Even civs you ally with and even save from certain death will hate you if you're powerful.

Do not expect real friends & allies, it merely leads to frustration. The AI is coded to try and win, and it will act in what it sees as its best interests. If that means signing a peace treaty mid-way through an alliance with you because they can get gold & tech from the enemy, they will do it. And so on and so forth.

If you want to be left alone (the best you can hope for), give occasional gifts, try not to be sucking their treasury all the way dry (leave them a few gpt leeway so they don't have to attack you to get out of a deal that is bankrupting them), and do not allow the AI to see you as weak. Have an decent military, even if you have no plans to use it.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

I think you had it right the first line: Kill them.

[Catt]

Originally posted by dexters


I thought the AI don't know who the human player is? or is this a myth?

The AI doesn't distinguish between human and AI for a wide variety of actions (it appears), but it certainly behaves in some ways differently when dealing with another AI versus the human - whether due to "knowing" it is the human or applying different set algoritms based on difficulty, etc. is unknown. I can think, off the top of my head, of at least 2 instances where treatment is disparate: (1) the ROP issue, since the AI always seems to declare war by attacking without a declaration (unless the declaration is upon a refused demand); and (2) trade pricing (due to the AI-AI trade rate in the editor).

Catt

[TheArsenal]

Originally posted by Arrian

Not one of them can be trusted not to backstab you. Even civs you ally with and even save from certain death will hate you if you're powerful.

Exactly. And that's the beauty of this game, isn't it? AI civs can't ever be trusted, but situations force you to ally with it on occasion any way. You get that same feeling Stalin had when he saw panzers come racing across his border.

[dexters]

Originally posted by Catt
I can think, off the top of my head, of at least 2 instances where treatment is disparate: (1) the ROP issue, since the AI always seems to declare war by attacking without a declaration (unless the declaration is upon a refused demand); and (2) trade pricing (due to the AI-AI trade rate in the editor).

Catt

Juist to clarify on the ROP issue. You mean to say they declare war always by moving their units to attack you instead of formally nullifying the peace treaty so that a state of war exists?

My memory is a little hazy, but I do remember one game where my ally, the Aztecs declared war on me one turn before they attacked. But I'm not 100% sure of this.

[Catt]

Originally posted by dexters


Just to clarify on the ROP issue. You mean to say they declare war always by moving their units to attack you instead of formally nullifying the peace treaty so that a state of war exists?

My memory is a little hazy, but I do remember one game where my ally, the Aztecs declared war on me one turn before they attacked. But I'm not 100% sure of this.

Exactly -- if the state of war doesn't arise through the signing of a military alliance, the triggering of an MPP, or the formal declaration following a rejected tribute demand / remove your troops or declare demand, then the only way I've ever seen the AI initiate a war was by actually attacking (usually a city, sometimes a unit or grabbing a worker).

If the human doesn't first formally declare war but instead just launches an attack, it is treated as a form of ROP abuse -- doesn't seem to be as damaging as breaching an actual ROP (so many 20-turn deals are still possible), but severely hampers one's ability to secure an ROP with other civs - it is viewed as a human sneak attack. A simple declaration (without troops in enemy territory) followed immediately by an attack avoids this rep hit for the human.

It's pretty easy to see that the AIs have no problem entering into subsequent ROPs after such sneak attacks, and it appears to me (though this is very difficult to verify even with the debug mode since we can't actually see hard assets being traded for 20-turn assets) that the AIs are able to enter into 20-turn deals even after breaching numerous previous deals. All this doesn't particularly bother me - I think the game works fairly well (including the implementation of reputation) in spite of this disparate treatment.

Back on your original topic (since I don't think I ever addressed it ), I have no idea if the AI "remembers" its enemies and alters its future behavior because of this memory. But I do know that each civ (including the human's) "remembers" prior enemies and may classify some as "traditional enemies" -- such traditional enemies apparently enhance the happiness effects your people experience with a new war involving the enemy and/or slow the accumulation of war weariness relating to such wars. Whether the "traditional enemy" effect also alters AI decision making . . . ???

Catt

[dexters]

Thanks Catt for the clarificaiton. If I may stray a little bit from the discussion (this is my thread afterall) :P

In PTW debug, is there anyway for me to watch the AI play without me actually being present in the game?

Also do you take a rep his if you Move a 1 movement unit into enemy territory. Have the AI ask you to leave or declare war and you choose war.

As opposed two, moving two/three movement units like knights and tanks where you can move into their territory and attack the same turn.

[Catt]

Originally posted by dexters
In PTW debug, is there anyway for me to watch the AI play without me actually being present in the game?

Not that I know of. I have used the one-tile island solution that you mentioned elsewhere; combine that with a beer or other preferred beverage on the spacebar, and you've got an interesting test game .

Also do you take a rep his if you Move a 1 movement unit into enemy territory. Have the AI ask you to leave or declare war and you choose war.

Haven't tested in a while, but my answer is "yes." Anytime you declare war, for whatever reason, with any of your units in enemy territory, you take a hit akin to what I would call a "sneak attack." This is true even if you're pulled into the war through an MPP. On the other hand, this "sneak attack" rep hit seems less severe than a true ROP rape situation -- with a "sneak attack" it still seems that you can enter into a lot of "reputation-sensitive" deals (i.e., buying a tech for gpt) but will have trouble entering into an ROP. By contrast, declaring war with an active ROP in place will more severely tarnish your rep, as now you have committed both a "sneak attack" and breached an active deal.

Again, haven't tested in a while, but those are my $0.02.

As opposed to, moving two/three movement units like knights and tanks where you can move into their territory and attack the same turn.

Unless I have abandoned my reputation, I almost always declare first and then attack in this manner, either with fast-movers to reach a target or with slow movers moving into position after a declaration.

Catt

[dexters]

Thanks for the response Catt.

On a related note, does the AI consider declaring war while a luxury, or gpt trade is on-going as a reputation blackening event?

[Egbert]

Originally posted by TheArsenal
But in its favor, an AI which is allied with me in a war, will definitely step up and take its share of the battle. And I have, on several occasions, had an AI give the APPEARANCE of vigorously defending the one of my cities (alone on another continent) wedged between it and the hostile civ. And it will do things like throw archers against tanks to give the APPEARANCE of distracting the hostile from focusing its fire power on my city. I have to say, this is an aspect of the AI that I am extremely pleased with.

Now, if I could only get it to stop bombarding an enemy city's improvements when I have the situation in hand and am about to take that city, and WANT those improvements.

The AI certainly does take its share of the battle. I try to arrange for them to take more than their share whenever circumstances permit. (As if the purpose of an alliance is to weaken both your enemy and ally whilst strengthening your own civ.)

As for the APPEARANCE of vigorously defending a human city. I find that if you are between your ally and your enemy then your ally may send a constant stream of units across your territory, with or without a ROP, which will fight any enemy units encountered in your territory. This can sometimes actually be used as a (but not entirely reliable) supplement to your own defences.

If I were the AI I also would bombard the hell out of any city you were about to take. If I happen to have say warships nearby you can be certain I will hit any city about to fall to my AI ally with every bombard I have in range.

[Egbert]

Originally posted by dexters
Thanks for the response Catt.

On a related note, does the AI consider declaring war while a luxury, or gpt trade is on-going as a reputation blackening event?

Yes.

If you enter a 20 turn deal and then declare war you will not be able to get any more per turn deals with anyone.

[MattH]

The AI has done the most random things to me. I was kicking German @rse when the persians, who had helped me through the who game and were fighting with me flipped for no reason. The AI never seems to notice when I do good things. Maybe the next patch will fix this...