How often do you research Navigation?

[nbarclay]

How often do you research Navigation in your games? This might also be a good place for discussing reasoning behind such decisions.

[DaveMcW]

I mainly research Navigation in fast conquest games where:

1. Difficulty is Monarch or lower
2. I cleared my continent by the early middle ages
3. No civs can be reached by caravels

[CerberusIV]

I will research it only on a continents map where one or more civs are still unknown at that point in the game - so I can be first to contact them and make a killing trading communications. Otherwise I don't bother (except when playing the Spanish - for the obvious reason).

[Dominae]

Nathan, this poll is a good idea. But you have to be careful to read it correctly in order to use its results in the AU mod.

Clearly people research Navigation once in a while. The real question is whether they would always research it if it were mandatory. Given the (very few) responses so far, I would guess the answer is no. In those cases where Navigation's ability would be useful, it is researched. In those cases where it would not, it is completely bypassed. I'm repeating myself here from the other thread, but the decision just outlined is independent of whether or not Navigation is mandatory.

So (in a sense) this poll is asking the wrong question.


Dominae

[CerberusIV]

I did read a bit of the AU thread before posting here. Personally I would be unhappy to have Navigation mandatory unless it came with something worthwhile for all civs, not just the Spanish or those who might get a GA from Magellan. I would always research it if it gave galleons and frigates came with magnetism.

[Dominae]

CerberusIV, you've hit the nail on the head. Why are you "not happy" about researching Navigation? Because it's use to you is minimal; you do not think that Navigation's ability to allow Ocean trade is worth the effort. But the AI thinks Navigation is a great tech. We're trying to help the AI in the AU mod, and therefore, personal preference aside, making Navigation mandatory would clearly do this.

Note that Printing Press is now mandatory in the AU mod, yet it gives nothing itself, and leads to mostly nothing too.


Dominae

[Catt]

I voted "Sometimes." I am more likely to beeline for Navigation in situations where I have (or believe I have) a luxury monopoly, or where I have a luxury diversity shortage.

In other words, I value Navigation for its ocean trading abilities (I don't usually care too much about Magellan's), and its value to me is therefore directly proportional to how valuable the ocean-trading ability will be (either based on need or on profit opportunity).

I don't have an opinion on the proposed change as it affects the AU Mod (or at least I haven't formed any yet).

Catt

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Catt
I am more likely to beeline for Navigation in situations where I have (or believe I have) a luxury monopoly, or where I have a luxury diversity shortage.

Would your decision be affected by whether or not Navigation is mandatory in these cases?


Dominae

[Catt]

Originally posted by Dominae


Would your decision be affected by whether or not Navigation is mandatory in these cases?

If it were mandatory I would be slightly more inclined to beeline to it -- i.e., a smaller perceived benefit of ocean-trading would be needed to induce me to affirmatively go after Navigation early. If I make a decision that its abilities are not very desireable (given game circumstances) then I am not likely to research it unless I am forced to do so (whether it is optional or mandatory). In this sense, it is similar to Metallurgy for me -- if I'm not beelining to MT (or otherwise anxious for cavalry), I am pretty comfortable ignoring Met. and trading for it later (which would be true whether Met were optional or mandatory).

Catt

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae
CerberusIV, you've hit the nail on the head. Why are you "not happy" about researching Navigation? Because it's use to you is minimal; you do not think that Navigation's ability to allow Ocean trade is worth the effort. But the AI thinks Navigation is a great tech. We're trying to help the AI in the AU mod, and therefore, personal preference aside, making Navigation mandatory would clearly do this.

Have you thought about what life would be like for AIs if they didn't research Navigation, given the fact that they don't use suicide galleys? Imagine if human players could keep a monopoly on intercontinental contact all the way until Magnetism in games where a Lighthouse crossing isn't available or is controlled by the human. It would be nice if the AI "thought process" in choosing whether to research Navigation were more sophisticated, but given the fact that it isn't, I think the AIs are much more effective researching Navigation too much than they would be researching it too little.

[Theseus]

Always.

But that's beside the point.

[badams52]

Actually, I never research Navigation (unless I'm way ahead in tech). Astonomy I like and get, but I'm a, important wonders hog so I'll research economics before navigation and research towards theory of gravity. It's easier to trade for navigation on higher levels. Lowe levels...well that's another story.

BTW I agree with Catt on the trading part, but usually once I have astronomy, I don't have a great need for navigation.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Have you thought about what life would be like for AIs if they didn't research Navigation, given the fact that they don't use suicide galleys?

Yes, this is obvious. It is also obvious (to me) that because 1) the human player can use the "suicide Galley" strategy, and 2) has the option of not researching Navigation, he or she has a major advantage with respect to (ultimately) trading potential.

Please do not forget the point of the change I'm proposing to the AU mod: given that the AI is disadvantaged with respect to tech trading and naval travel, it would help it to make Navigation mandatory, because it would "handicap" the human player. So far, you have not disagreed with the premise in italics.

And I'm frankly quite surprised that no one sees this as a problem like I do (except perhaps CerberusIV). I believe the game would be a lot more fun if the AI were not so easily "outplayed" with respect to tech research, and if Navigation were of a higher priority in all games.


Dominae

[Fosse]

I agree with Dominae here. It's silly to be able to bank on what you will or will not be able to trade the AI. Navigation was originally made optional because the designers thought Magellan's and exploerers would be enough to make a sound strategic decision. Well, in an all MP game, maybe. But the AI doesn't recognize the pros and cons of techs several layers down the tree, or the advantages of bypassing some optional techs.

Navigation should be made required.

I'd also be comfortable moving galleons to navigation, if that would help some people in being okay with the change.

I voted that I sometimes reserach, depending on the situation.

[Theseus]

I concur with the change.