Course description for AU207

[nbarclay]

Edit: If you aren't interested in my thoughts on opening moves on this map, don't read farther.

In the absence of additional information, I'd stick with the starting position. With the worker available, the two prime possibilities are to move the worker due north or due west (depending on which tile one wants to improve first), in which case something the worker sees could have an influence. The reasons North and West are attractive are (1) they uncover five extra tiles instead of the three a diagonal would, and (2) they put the worker on tiles amenable to quick improvement.

On a standard map, I'd probably move my worker west first on the theory that getting a granary built earlier will make up for the higher growth I could get working irrigated flood plains. But on a huge map, research tends to bottleneck how early granaries can be built (unless you either play an expansionist civ or get Pottery from a hut or AI), and that makes north rather attractive - not just for more food but also for more commerce to research Pottery faster. (Not that it makes sense to work the flood plains before it's irrigated, of course.)

By the way, Dominae, how in the world did you come up with Russia and the Aztecs as two of the playable civs? Neither of those would be anywhere near my list of favorites for these settings. And I assume we're using 13 rather than 16 civs (including the player) after all?

[Dominae]

Catt, I edited the post I think you were referring to. But why did your quote censor my post (does 'Poly not like the word 'p opping'?).

Nathan, we're playing with all 16 civs. 12 of the AIs are set in both stock and PTW versions (the 12 are different in both versions), while the 3 other ones are placed randomly in the pre-set start locations. These locations should not be critical to the course of the game.

Egyptians: Appears to be a favorite.

French/Carthaginians: Arguably the best Huge map civs.

Russians: The power of Expansionist scales with map size. Scientific should be interesting with the new patch. Cossacks will definitely see play on this map (I doubt I'm revealing much by saying that the game will be far from over come Military Tradition).

Aztecs: Jags double as Scouts even better on larger maps. Because of this, they can conceivably be played peacefully to great effect, focusing on Culture.

Spanish: Might as well throw in one "bad" civ to add a little flavor to the AARs. Commercial/Religious should not be that horrible either, considering the amount of space available.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

General hints (i.e. hints not tied to spoiler information) don't belong mixed in with a spoilers thread. They fit better in the game thread. And the question of what to do in one's first move is definitely not tied to spoiler information (except perhaps with regard to one's choice of civs), since what Dominae posted is no different from what we'll see when we load up the game.

I think some discussion of options for opening moves here would be worthwhile so people can have some time to think about their options and take advantage of each other's thoughts. It might mean most or all of us end up starting the same way (aside from the Russians/everyone else issue), but it would be a learning experience, and isn't learning what AU is supposed to be about?

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Dominae, I hope you're making the PtW version compatible with 1.14 since not everyone has (or can get) 1.21 yet. (Personally, I'd be pushed into having dual installations since I still need 1.14 for some PBEM games that haven't made the switch yet.)

Aztecs as peaceful builders??? They're religious/militaristic if I recall correctly, so a religious/expansionistic civ with real scouts would almost certainly do better in such a role.

Speaking of expansionists, if I were playing an expansionistic civ, I'd take America over Russia. Granted, America's UU doesn't do much good, but even in 1.21, I view Industrious as more useful than Scientific. Then again, since I'll be playing either Egypt or France (or maybe Carthage), it doesn't matter that much to me.

[Jawa Jocky]

Having never put the effort into a Huge game I was thinking about going for a HOF game.

Can I use the MOD if this my goal? I seem to recall that you have to play stock to make the HOF.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Dominae
Catt, I edited the post I think you were referring to. But why did your quote censor my post (does 'Poly not like the word censored?).

I manually censored your quote (and did so again!) - so as not to defeat the purpose of the editing -- i.e., eliminating reference to one of the principal factors weighing in my decision to build or move, a factor which you hadn't considered and thought was interesting (and, consequently, was perhaps spoiler info?).

Originally posted by nbarclay
General hints (i.e. hints not tied to spoiler information) don't belong mixed in with a spoilers thread. They fit better in the game thread. And the question of what to do in one's first move is definitely not tied to spoiler information (except perhaps with regard to one's choice of civs), since what Dominae posted is no different from what we'll see when we load up the game.

I think some discussion of options for opening moves here would be worthwhile so people can have some time to think about their options and take advantage of each other's thoughts. It might mean most or all of us end up starting the same way (aside from the Russians/everyone else issue), but it would be a learning experience, and isn't learning what AU is supposed to be about?

I'd rather not be exposed to anyone's moves or tactics *(and the reasons for such moves) until I've been forced to make my own decisions. My comments (since edited) were specific, and could influence others' opening moves. I do want to learn (and agree that AU is all about learning), but I want to learn by thinking on my own and then seeing how others came to different conclusions -- a "learn as you play" approach strikes me more as a form of a "succession game" than a compared-results AU game.

We experimented for a few AU games with 3 different threads: (1) game thread; (2) general hints and tips; and (3) spoilers. I prefer when the game thread is used just as a download location and a location to ask questions about game set-up, possible bugs etc. Although a "general hints and tips" thread might be appropriate for my since-edited comment, I would probably still have modified it to be more generalized than an advocation for a specific move; and I think having a general hints thread and a spoiler thread is overkill. My comments as posted -- my thoughts on build or move, and the reasons why -- strike me as quintessentially "spoiler info" -- they don't necessarily spoil the game by revelaing information about the map, opponents, etc., but they spoil the individual thought process that we all apply to each specific move.

Catt

[nbarclay]

Last I checked, you also have to play a random map for a HOF shot, so the fact that Dominae created the map for this game would disqualify it in any case.

[nbarclay]

If we don't want general tips in the game download thread, I think we need a "Hints and tips" thread separate from the spoilers thread. The idea of forcing people who want general hints and tips oriented toward, but not revealing spoiler information about, a specific game to read a thread with spoilers (including screenshots) in it makes no sense to me.

If we don't want a separate thread, people could include a warning (like I went back and added to my post regarding opening moves) so people who want to play without being influenced by the thoughts of others can avoid reading such posts.

[Catt]

Originally posted by nbarclay
If we don't want a separate thread, people could include a warning (like I went back and added to my post regarding opening moves) so people who want to play without being influenced by the thoughts of others can avoid reading such posts.

A warning works well enough, I suppose (in the absence of spoiling screenshots). I know how little I like being exposed to other's thinking before I play an AU game, so that I'll err on the side of caution (don't fear for me though in the face of your post, I think I came to a different conclusion than you did and your intervention hasn't yet swayed me ). Of course I really want to be exposed to others' thinking - that's why I play AU - but I want it to come after I've been forced to think through the issue as well. Nothing like the feeling of to drive home an important lesson, and I just don't get that feeling unless I have made a mistake (i.e., already acted).

I think we used a separate "hints and tips" thread for only a few AU games (Son of SVC rings a bell) and my impression was that they were underutilized -- most of the good tidbits came through in the related spoiler threads. I'm not opposed to them in any way, I just thought we'd largely abandoned the practice.

Catt

[nbarclay]

The "hints and tips" threads were never intended to be all that big in size because there's a limit to how much information can be provided without getting into spoiler territory. On the other hand, they were a good place to discuss ideas for using particular civs, playing particular map settings, and such, and I kind of miss them. I'm not sure how much they disappeared because a conscious decision was made to get rid of them and how much just because people didn't think about creating them.

[Master Zen]

Huge map... I'll have to respectfully decline

I'm already playing a huge map progressive game on the Spanish game and it's taking up waaay too much time on my poor P3...

[Jawa Jocky]

Thanks nbarclay I should have been able to think that through on my own

With regards to the opening move. If you cheated on the 1st question of the test it would not neccessarily guarantee you a good grade on the exam.

However I want to know nothing going into a game. I'm often disappointed by discovering late game suprises in the spoiler (like oil in the Power of Comm.). Oh well, I should quit my job and only play civ

[Dominae]

Catt, thanks for editing my posts (I think!). All this discussion will be irrelevent in a few hours when I get the game ready.

Nathan, I created the game under Play the World 1.14 rules. I do not anticipate any problems with providing a 1.21 version.

We'll just have to wait and see concerning the Aztecs! So as not to release any more "spoiler" information (quotes used because anyone can just get this info when they download the game), I'll just reiterate what I said above, namely that I believe Jaguar Warriors to be quite powerful on Huge maps. Maybe I'm wrong, but someone will have to prove me so! Another factor that I can mention is that the AI just wastes the Aztecs' potential, which I just hate to watch.

It's probably just me, but the Americans are too obvious a civ choice on a Huge map, since they have the best traits for this map size. Maybe Aeson's borg game scared me more than I thought...


Dominae

[minke19104]

Cant wait to play it

[nbarclay]

If your teacher tells you a question will be on the test, is it cheating to discuss the question with fellow students before the test starts? Not by any standard I've ever heard. That's how I see discussion of the opening move of the game, especially with a map of the starting position already posted.

I can respect Catt's view that he'd rather make his own choices (and, possibly, mistakes) so that he'll perhaps remember the lessons better. But some people would rather do their learning before the test and make a better grade.

Nathan