What do you do with your first leader?

[Master Zen]

Hola,

I'm sure a thread like this has already been done but I was just curious to see what you people have to say about this since many people have very different views on what to do with the first leader.

Personally, I build the Forbidden Palace. Since you get your first leader usually during your first war of expansion, you want those extra cities to actually be able to produce something, corruption can really make conquest rather worthless in an economic sense.

Only if I am involved in a MAJOR war do I build an Army first.

[Fosse]

I always try to snage the Great Libarary with my first leader, if it comes early enough. Otherwise, it's whatever wonder I think that all of the AI's have dedicated hundreds of shields to that I could really use. Pyramids on AU mod, any Middle Age happiness wonders that are up for grabs. I'll buy any tech at any price if it lets me rush build a really good wonder.

If I do a huge palace relocation it usually comes in a major conquest game, and that's always timed for me for a second or third leader (the first comes when I'm too small to move the palace, and corruption is low enough to manually build the FP.)

[aaglo]

Depends on the current situation. Mostly I've used it to build Forbidden palace or a decent wonder: Great Library, Great lighthouse (especially on an island map), ect.

[The Mad Monk]

I'll take the army.

[Arrian]

FP or Palace move, depending on the situation. That is the highest priority by a mile.

I can't vote for both, so I voted Palace move.

-Arrian

[Jawa Jocky]

My Palace always seems to be a little off position for best placement. So I usually build the FP a city over asap. I usually Palace jump asap too. Since my culture is usually quite poor I run a larger risk of my FP flipping.

I have to 2nd Arrian, FP/Palace is the highest priority in all my games.

[Dominae]

If it's really early, I always build the Pyramids. This has happened to me twice, and those games were a breeze.

If I've still not yet conquered much land, I'll often build an Army (always if Militaristic). I'm convinced the payoff is there, and it makes the game more fun.

If the two cases above do not apply, I'll rush the FP/Palance, depending on the local geography.


Dominae

[Arrian]

Dominae,

Early leader goes for the Pyramids? Interesting, considering your results using one to build the FP in the "Strategic Choice" game (I bumped the thread, since it is relevent).

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Arrian, I offered to test the FP! On that map...I'm not sure which would be better (Pyramids or FP). I remember my conclusion that the FP would be best, but I'm now trying to remember why...

These days, I give the nod to the Pyramids, if the Leader comes during an Archer rush or some other ridiculously early time.


Dominae

[Arrian]

Interesting. I've drawn the opposite conclusion, in part based upon the "Strategic Choice" game. I just hold the leader and beeline for the city I want my FP (or palace move) in. I try to hold elites out of combat if possible during that time, to prevent losses and train up my vets.

Getting a second core up and running ASAP seems to be more powerful than free granaries everywhere. True, it's best to get both (and sometimes, if you're on a large continent with lots of neighbors, you have a decent shot at capturing the Pyramids from the AI, thus removing the choice).

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Capturing the Pyramids is completely different from getting it with an early Leader: you'll probably not be REXing much by the time the AI finishes the Wonder and you've conquered it.

A Granary-enabled expansion phase is really really good. By "ultra-early", I mean that you have not expanded far enough (and conquered far enough...) for the a good FP site to be available. You would have to rush your FP in a site that's completely isolated. In 'A Strategic Choice', there were many many turns where the FP and the land around it were not that productive, in spite of reduced Corruption. I feel that I could have done better economically with the Pyramids. The next war would hopefully produce the FP Leader (never count on it though!).


Dominae

[Arrian]

That's just it. You cannot count on that 2nd leader. I've done it, and then regretted it.

Second, with respect to the Pyramids for REXing... well, I concede that it would greatly boost your REX phase. However, there is still a lot of use to be gotten from the Pyramids if you capture them after the REX period. City growth from size 7 to 12 has a larger food box, but there is no RR to boost the power of irrigated tiles. The Pyramids will get your cities up to size 12 quickly and, of course, for free. Second, after building hospitals, you get another round of free 2x growth, meaning you don't need to lower production much (by irrigating over mines) to acheive a decent growth rate up from size 13.

I suppose I see that later benifit more since I use wider city spacing and end up with cities in the 18 - 25 pop range.

-Arrian

[Dominae]

But that's just it! I'm not counting on a second Leader, I'm taking matters into my own hands and ensuring a super-strong early-game. A FP at the time of the game I'm considering is not as good as the Pyramids, IMO. Eventually, will a lot of work, the FP obviously becomes better, but I'm talking about tempo.

And I think you misunderstood be about the Pyramids. I'm not against capturing them, they obviously have benefits well past the expansion phase. My point was that their benefit during the expansion phase is great enough that I would rather get it myself (via Leader) than wait to capture it.


Dominae

[Wycoff]

1st Leader: Great Library. If I already have the library, then I build an army specifically to be able to build the heroic epic and generate more leaders.

[Arrian]

Dominae,

I understood what you meant regarding the Pyramids. I was just trying to explain why I would rather use the leader on a FP/Palace move and hope to capture the Pyramids later.

You are willing to use up the leader for the Pyramids and accept the possibility that you may not get another leader for the FP/Palace move, because the Pyramids provides such an immediate power boost, not to mention a long-term benifit.

I am willing to use up the leader for the FP/Palace move and accept that I may not capture the Pyramids (on my continent, anyway) later or get a leader in time to rush the Pyramids myself, because an early second core of cities provides such an early power boost, not to mention long-term benifit.

You think the Pyramids extremely early beats out a FP/Palace move somewhat later. Hmm.

The most powerful games I've played have been the ones with early, well-placed FPs or Palace moves. The most powerful of those games were the ones where I captured the Pyramids on my continent.

I guess what this really comes down to is what you think is REALLY early. 1025bc, like in "Strategic Choice?" Earlier? I re-read the "Strategic Choice" thread and I think it is very clear that your game (FP) was stronger than mine (Pyramids).

-Arrian