Winning as Rome on a Huge World

[vmxa1]

I won't go so far as to say it can never happen, but I would think that you would have much bigger problems than culture if it were to happen. I have never been in any danger of it on any level.
The point is you do not have lay awake sweating culture defeats.

[Master Zen]

Culture flipping...

in my latest game I founded a city about 2 squares from an enemy city with a 2-tile border.

About 4 turns later, it flipped! I rolled back to the previous save (seed was ON so there was no way to avoid the flip) and rushed a Temple. Since the flips occur AFTER you build your units, building the temple actually avoided the flip!

At least for a while... about 20 turns later the AI city eventually got a 3 tile border shortly after my city flipped anyway. Got it back thru war though

[vmxa1]

Yes that is a sad tale, but city flipping does occur, we were only talking about losing the game via cultural victory by the AI. That is what I was saying is not worth worring about.

[Master Zen]

An AI cultural victory is something that has never happened in any of my games at any difficulty level. I think Firaxis only put it in the game as another option for players as a way to win, not as a way to lose.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

To get back to Rome...

I really must learn to win some victory as Rome on a huge world. Yes, Huge and Rome do not a perfect match make. But hence the challenge.

A little update...

1. Expanding Rome.SAV is going very well... cities flipping to me, fought a "false war" with Japan and extracted two cities from them, building most of the significant wonders... but overseas, the Germans, of all civs, build Leo's Workshop before me. As I am accustomed to building EVERY significant, not-one-city medival wonder, I found this so galling that I quit. Sure, I could still win, but what a pain in the youknowwhere.

2. I have started a new game, surrounded by enemies and rich in resources. I was attacked by America, build up my legionaries and attacked them... took 2 cities, got peace from them and all but 2 of the 8 other civs they got to attack me (Military Alliance v. Americans never seemed to be an option for me in diplomacy ), and I have a huge military force poised to take a few Korean cities and end that war. Furthermore, I have the GL and am "caught up" on techs, with 16 turns to go (well in advance of my foes) to build the HG.

But I'm still a despotism, have 500+ gold and an 11 gold per turn deficit, and Feudalism is going to take me 22 turns to get. Furthermore, though ALL my cities have barracks this time, only about half have temples and none have anything more than that.

I can bring down Korea, and maybe take on nearby China with it's grapes, but will this cost me the game? Will someone else build Sun Tzu's, Sistine, etc?

In other words, WHAT THE HELL DO I DO NOW?

A few other broad-based Rome questions:

1. I know few of you play Rome on a huge world, and I know why. Nonetheless, how many cities do you typically build before you stop? 5? 10? Quel nombre?

2. When do you build barracks? After there's one defensive unit in the city? As soon as you meet a neighbor? When?

Please, people, let's make this happen. Help turn poor little Yahweh into a proper Roman empire-builder, on a huge map.

[Arrian]

In other words, WHAT THE HELL DO I DO NOW?

The single most important thing is setting up a good Palace/FP axis. The idea is to conquer the entire continent and use a Great Leader to rush the FP (or move your palace, having built the FP manually). But you don't have to have the ideal.

The second most important thing is to get the hell out of despotism.

how many cities do you typically build before you stop? 5? 10? Quel nombre?

2. When do you build barracks? After there's one defensive unit in the city? As soon as you meet a neighbor? When?

1. On a standard map 10-12. So I'd say 15-20 on a huge map.

2. I tend to get my expansion out of the way first. So in the beginning it's warriors, workers and settlers, with the occasional spearman to ward off barbs. Then, once I'm nearing the end of my expansion phase, it's barracks everywhere and troops.

Have you tried going "builder" until Cavalry yet? That really may work better on your chosen map settings.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Arrian, my proclivity in Civ in general is to go builder, and normally I have no problem doing so. In fact, I can do a good job REXing as the Romans - 15-20 cities is what I'd like to be building. But generally, by that point, there's some bastard cocky enough to start a war with me, which puts my expansion on hold.

I guess I hadn't really thought about waiting until Cavalry - that seems so late.

As for the FP placement... I >do< like to place it smack in the middle of the continent, or rather, it and palace in the center of the western/northern and eastern/southern half of my continental empire. But if I'm waiting for Cavalry, certainly I'll want to build my FP before that. And then I have to build it much closer to my Palace than I'd like. Would you recommend building it in a city near to my capital, and then moving my palace manually later?

Another question - how do I address gaining techs during this period of expansion? I can't seem to buy them except at ridiculously huge prices...

Also, what proportion of workers do your build in relation to the amount of cities? One per city? Two? And what do you do with each worker? Build roads only? Have one build roads and another work on the city?

Keep it coming, guys and gals.

[Arrian]

Re: workers...

With a non-industrial civ... probably something like 1.5 per city.

Mines and Roads. Get your production up, connect your cities. Irrigate when it makes sense for growth (growth is good, fear not the luxury spending slider). Later on, chopping forest will help you build those 60-shield temples.

Re: tech trading...

The key is to research along a different path than they do, and trade. The Monarchy route will often provide excellent trading opportunities (the AI will pay lots for Polytheism & Monarchy). Remember: only trade on YOUR turn, so you can trade with all AIs at once and maximize your profits.

Early harrassment can help. Hitting a settler team early on, or even just ripping up their roads & stealing a worker will harm the AI. When they will accept your envoy again, you should be able to get at least 1 tech on the cheap (if they would normally charge you 100gold for it, they probably are asking for 50 now).

Clearly, if going the "wait for Cavalry" route, the GL would be a good idea.

Re: FP for the "builder." The builder must accept a FP closer to home, it's true. Maybe you move your palace later, maybe you don't... it depends on the geography.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

I must say, I have started using the harrasment strategy to great effect, as well as building an archer right off the bat and taking Thebes, Sparta, etc., an act which leaves my little friends quite crippled. Sometimes I take it too far and get bogged down in unnecessarily long wars, but I'm developing the right balance, I think.

So, head for Polytheism before even Iron Working, then?

[Arrian]

No, IW is a "must have" tech.

As Rome, you start with the alphabet & warrior code. I usually trade those (which are worth quite a bit) for other start techs, like bronze working, pottery, ceremonial burial. Hence, I often don't research BW myself - I expect to trade for it. Therefore, my first research is The Wheel. Having gotten BW via trade, I will then research IW. The Wheel can be traded for other things. Upon securing IW, I will go up the Monarchy path. HBR will come in one of the trades for Polytheism.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Hmm, I see. Very good. Any other tech suggestions?

[Arrian]

If you are in a position to broker masonry (not usually the case as Rome, but when playing an industrial civ...), do so. Even if you don't get much for it. You WANT your neighbor to build the Pyramids. Then you want to take it from them.

The only other tip I can think of right now is to check your contacts pretty much every turn - otherwise you may miss out on a good deal.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Well, I'm finally on track with Rome!

REXed agressively, and now have about 20 cities, all Roman (i.e., no flips to me , which I normally get). Rich land, with 3 luxuries, iron, and horsies.

Followed your advice, Arrian: Went for Iron Working, then beelined to Monarchy. Sold Alphabet along the way quite profitably (got two techs from the Babylonians alone).

Got involved in the GL race and lost out by just a few turns, but had Monarchy, and hence switched to the HG and built it, ensuring happiness for some time.

Felt no shame in using my whole treasury to buy one advance, no matter how stupid... Code of Laws, for example. Constantly speaking to my neighbors kept me on good terms with all of them.

By the time the medival era rolled around, after I switched to Monarchy (I intend to wage war), I had a very slight tech edge, or at least parity. True, the Carths and a few others got Monotheism first, but I got Feudalism before them.

And then, God bless them, those "polite" Greeks came out of the North and attacked me with a few horsemen. I saw them coming, and I know those Greeks, so I switched my border city from Library to Legionary, attacked their weakened horseman, and boom! Golden Age.

So now, as I build Sun Tzu's, I'm in a position to get the jump on Leo's Workshop, Sistine, and JS Bach's before any of my competitors. My culture is behind, due to my REXing, but I'm using the GA to crank out temples, libraries, markplaces, aqueducts and cathedrals to change that disparity.

The Greeks are so far away that, by having my many allies attack them for me, I will eventually be able to extract a tech (maybe Chivalry?) or a huge chunk of change from them...

So all I have to say is: FINALLY!!!

But this leads me to the NEXT stage... how to make sure I don't blow my lead!

I'll bring in a .SAV for you guys to look at, if you would kind enough to do so. My main question is now: develop and wait for military trad, or take on a few of my nearest neighbors (most likely Babylon and Egypt, maybe India) with Knights?

Anyhow, keep the flame alive... the unholy flame of bloody conquest, that is... and keep the advice coming, everyone... thanks for all the advice so far!

Long Live Severus!

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Hmmm, have people lost interest in this thread?

Well, never mind. It's time to discuss...

How to overcome parity in the medival era

I plan to start a whole new thread about this for everyone to talk about, but for now, let's stick to Rome.

I have included my lastest .SAV so you guys can see the boat I'm in. I'm ahead of almost everyone in terms of tech, and I even managed to buy Chivalry from the Indians. Sun Tzu's is mine, Sistine is mine.

The rest of the world decided to wipe out Egypt, and I got involved just in time to grab Thebes. The Carthaginians, damn them, got the rest of Egypt.

THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH IS A RANT:

I know the book says "agression level 4" for Carthage, but it seems like agression level 6 to me. They always take over at least one huge neighbor. Their UU is insanely powerful, when combined with their traits in particular. The real Carthage was not that industrious. Why is this one? I hate Carthage more than any other civ in the game, no matter whom I play as. They are generally more advanced in tech and break treaties constantly. Damn them! Damn them!

RANT CONCLUDED. BACK TO TOPIC:

So I'm currently a few turns from banking, and then I'm thinking about bee-lining for Military Tradition, to begin my cavalry wars.

But will I be strong enough to wage them? Will a coalition of Carthage, China and others come and cripple me?

Please take a look at my game, especially Arrian and vmxa1, and tell me what "route" to take now, plus any other advice. Should I take on another Knight war, against Babylon maybe? Should I wait? HELP!

[Arrian]

I can't download that and look at it now, since I'm at work (as is typically the case when I'm on 'poly ) I will try to have a look later, but my evenings this week are kinda hectic, since I'm finishing up moving out of my apartment and I'm going on a skiing trip this weekend.

-Arrian