The importance of the Medievil Wonders

[BRC]

Everyone has their own style of play. Some war, some build, and some do both. For others, diplomacy wins the game. However you play, everyone has those wonders which they need to have in order to be in control.

The Ancient Ages consists of getting enough productive cities to stay competitive, and keeping relatively close in tech with the AI. Some choose to grab some wonders along the way. I feel that devoting shields to some of the early wonders will decrease your chances of getting some of the medievil ones (except the Great Library). The idea is the the 400 shields (or whatever) is better used on infrastructure, growth, and trimming the AI. My last 3 games on Monarch (without spectacular starts, 8 civs, standard), I have bypassed all of the Ancient Wonders except the HG (which I got in 2 of the games). I was then able to nail all of the Medievil Wonders.

I have many questions for everyone concerning this. Is skipping Ancient Wonders worth it? Would it be worth it to grab a few early and miss a few of the later ones? Another idea. Would it be better to build up your infrastructure with Universities and Banks and forget about the wonders, all while beelining to the Industrial Age? Finally, what wonders do you require for the type of game that you play (if any)? If anyone could just put down their thoughts, I'd appreciate it. Just like to hear what you guys think.

[Dominae]

Re: The importance of the Medievil Wonders

Originally posted by BRC
I have many questions for everyone concerning this.

Shoot.

Originally posted by BRC
Is skipping Ancient Wonders worth it?

I wouldn't skip Ancient Wonders as a matter of course, but I certainly do not prioritize them. I seem them as nice options if the opportunity arises. That is, I'll usually concentrate on other things, but if I feel I can afford to set aside one city to start a prebuild (for whatever Wonder), I'm not opposed to doing so. The exception to this "rule" is the Great Library, which, if you're planning to build it, alters your gameplan enough that you need to put some thought into securing it. On the higher difficulty levels, I would say that your whole early-game strategy can be shaped around your decision to build the GL.

Originally posted by BRC
Would it be worth it to grab a few early and miss a few of the later ones?

I honestly don't see these two options as mutually exclusive. You can warmonger for the entire Ancient age and still be competitive in the Wonder race in the Medieval age (assuming, of course, that you somehow obtain the relevant techs). The required infrastructure you speak of shouldn't be too much of a problem in your core cities: Temple, Cathedral, Marketplace. Not that only a combination of these (and a few Luxuries) are required to keep unhappiness down in your high-production, Wonder cities. All other improvements are not required for pure Wonder-building.

Originally posted by BRC
Another idea. Would it be better to build up your infrastructure with Universities and Banks and forget about the wonders, all while beelining to the Industrial Age?

You make it sound like you're trying to grab most of the Medieval age Wonders. If you focus more on the few that you really need, you'll find that there are still a lot of cities in your empire that can produce other things. Whether this is military units, banks, or whatnot is up to you. My point is that, whatever strategy you're pursuing, being a "builder" doesn't increase your chances of getting (at least a few) Wonders. The "warmonger" can usually afford to set aside a couple of cities for Wonder-building, so he or she is not necessarily out of the Wonder race. This point is made evident by the AI, which decides to wage wars and build Wonder simultaneously.

Note that these comments do not transfer to the Industrial age. There, to be a competitive Wonder-builder, you're going to need Factories and Coal Plants, which do require a little time to set up. Of course, you could use your treasury to rush those improvements in a select few cities only.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if you're playing at the right difficulty level for you, Banks and Universities won't get you to the Industrial age all that much faster than the AI. This means that you might as well spend the time to build a couple of Wonders while you're still "Medieval".

Originally posted by BRC
Finally, what wonders do you require for the type of game that you play (if any)?

I'm beginning to realise that Wonders aren't requirements for success in Civ3, they're facilitators (unless you're going for something like a Cultural victory, which is quite hard without building a Wonder). From personal experience, I do have some "favorites" for my style of play:

1. The Great Library

As I mentioned above, planning around this Wonder can reap huge benefits (which usually translate into a lot of money for use in upgrading your Medieval units).

2. Forbidden Palace

This is the most important Wonder, bar none. You need to find a way to build this one, whether you're builder, warmonger, or hybrid player. Yes, I still believe this one to be a facilitator, but it "facilitates" so much that I would have to drop a couple of difficulty levels if I wasn't allowed to build it (for some reason).

3. One happiness Wonder

Games are a lot easier when you don't need to worry about unhappiness all the time. Any of J.S Bach's, Hanging Gardens or Sistine Chapel really help, although the Sistine Chapel does require a builder-type commitment.

Originally posted by BRC
If anyone could just put down their thoughts, I'd appreciate it. Just like to hear what you guys think.

Hope this helps. Oh, and if you ever get a super-early Great Leader, rush the Pyramids. You won't be sorry.


Dominae

[Arrian]

I consider the Sistine Chapel darn near essential, and I'm REALLY annoyed if I don't get Leonardos. Sun Tzu is nice, but that's the one I will accept losing, especially if I'm militaristic.

Bach's is very nice - essential if you don't get the Sistine. The two science wonders (Copernicus/Newton) are nice to have, but no big deal if you lose them. Magellan is unecessary, though I will try to get it if I can. Smith's is another one I really like, although I guess it really isn't crucial.

This advice, incidentally, is born of playing Standard size maps on Monarch and Emperor.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Dominae... it's funny you mention that (ultra-early leader)... thread coming...

-Arrian

[Theseus]

I'm with Dominae (great short overview, btw)... the only essential wonder is the FP, and next in line is one for happiness. The rest are just enhancers to whatever your game-winning strategy is.

But the drive is still there... MUST HAVE GWs!!

[GusSmed]

Originally posted by Arrian
I consider the Sistine Chapel darn near essential, and I'm REALLY annoyed if I don't get Leonardos.

Oddly, even though I considered it The Bomb in Civ 2, in Civ 3 I'm frequently unmoved if I miss the Sistine Chapel. In many games I don't build Cathedrals until I have hospitals, because I trade for or grab so many luxuries that Cathedrals are unneccessary until the population starts climbing above 15.

In contrast, J.S. Bach's is much more useful, because it works on all cities, not just those I've built those late, expensive Cathedrals. Given the choice between the two, I always opt for Bach's.

In Civ 2, getting or not getting the Sistine Chapel was a game breaker. In Civ 3, all of the happiness wonders tend to be relatively unimportant once general trading begins because luxuries plus marketplaces are so powerful.

On the other hand, they can be nice to have if luxuries are scarce. In my recent peaceful Emperor win, I had just one luxury, and could only trade for 2 more. 4 happy faces with a marketplace isn't much if you want size 12 cities. I managed to build the Hanging Gardens, the Sistine Chapel, and J.S. Bach's in that game, but I was being a total builder.

Losing Leonardo's doesn't trouble me much either. It's almost always built after I have upgraded to Knights, and Knight -> Cavalry is very cheap. So is Tank -> Modern Armor.

Upgrading early defensive units like Spearmen is expensive without Leonardo's, but I don't defend much.

Getting Leonardo's is great if I can manage it before I upgrade my horsemen. That's hard to pull off, though.

- Gus

[Worthingtons]

As someone said, Sistine requires a certain type of play.

I am a big fan of J.S Bach's too tho, along with Hoover, ToE,Leonardo's,Pyramids&GL. UN is usually important , of course

[BRC]

I wouldn't skip Ancient Wonders as a matter of course, but I certainly do not prioritize them.

This is the basic conclusion that I have come to also. Except for the Great Library, and special circumstances.

Concerning the Great Library on Emperor and Diety: Can you build it before the AI's do without putting yourself in a big hole as far as number of citites goes?

You can warmonger for the entire Ancient age and still be competitive in the Wonder race in the Medieval age (assuming, of course, that you somehow obtain the relevant techs).

These last few games I have been experimenting with turning my research all the way up at the beginning of the medievil ages in order to get to the wonder techs earlier, so that I can carry pre-builds over and start new ones. I also try to fire a GA here. I wrote this thread mainly because ...

But the drive is still there... MUST HAVE GWs!!

I have this problem VERY bad. I need to figure out which are necessary, and which ones I can afford to let go.

The required infrastructure you speak of shouldn't be too much of a problem in your core cities: Temple, Cathedral, Marketplace.

I have been sticking in Libraries too, for the run to the wonders. Should I just wait and use the shields on other things??

My point is that, whatever strategy you're pursuing, being a "builder" doesn't increase your chances of getting (at least a few) Wonders. The "warmonger" can usually afford to set aside a couple of cities for Wonder-building, so he or she is not necessarily out of the Wonder race.

Is it hard to nail more than your share of wonders on Emp and Diety as a pure builder? It seems to me that warring to trim the AI and generate Leaders seems to be your only shot, at least until Industrial Era. Set me straight here, as I have no experience in this manner.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if you're playing at the right difficulty level for you, Banks and Universities won't get you to the Industrial age all that much faster than the AI. This means that you might as well spend the time to build a couple of Wonders while you're still "Medieval".

Are you trying to tell me that the tech lead is worthless? I have seen that many people believe this, but I gotta have it. Or does this just mean that infrastructure isn't that important at this point in the game? Does your culture suffer (universities)? (I am used to blowing away the AI in culture. Still don't know what it feels like to have a city flip away.)

Ok. Question with Forbidden Palace. I do understand that it is important. How important? example: You can rush (Sistine??) or FP. Otherwise you lose (Sistine). What do you do?

Oh, and if you ever get a super-early Great Leader, rush the Pyramids. You won't be sorry.

I read that post. It was a good one. I'll have to play around with that. All my ultra early leaders go to army for Heroic Epic.

I consider the Sistine Chapel darn near essential, and I'm REALLY annoyed if I don't get Leonardos. Sun Tzu is nice, but that's the one I will accept losing, especially if I'm militaristic.

I feel the same way. You can "reproduce" Sun Tzu's effects, but not with the others. That's why I gotta have them.

The two science wonders (Copernicus/Newton) are nice to have, but no big deal if you lose them. Magellan is unecessary, though I will try to get it if I can. Smith's is another one I really like, although I guess it really isn't crucial.

Yeah, I guess I could learn to cut these out. How valuable is Smith's? I never really tried to figure it out.

This advice, incidentally, is born of playing Standard size maps on Monarch and Emperor.

That's why I value your imput so much. I'm not very fond of less that 21 tile spacing either.

Dominae... it's funny you mention that (ultra-early leader)... thread coming...

Good. I'm getting tired of the Heroic Epic.

In Civ 2, getting or not getting the Sistine Chapel was a game breaker. In Civ 3, all of the happiness wonders tend to be relatively unimportant once general trading begins because luxuries plus marketplaces are so powerful.

I think that they are really important due to war weariness and WLTKD. I probably don't need all of them if I'm just looking to keep my cities out of disorder.

Upgrading early defensive units like Spearmen is expensive without Leonardo's, but I don't defend much.

I don't lose cities, really, but I never have really built my defenses around attacking units. Tell me more.

Thanks guys. Anything else? OT: What about an AU no wonder game?

[Dominae]

A lot of points here...I'll try to address the important ones:

Originally posted by BRC
Concerning the Great Library on Emperor and Diety: Can you build it before the AI's do without putting yourself in a big hole as far as number of citites goes?

Yes. The AI REXes so well on these levels that on most maps you'll run out of space relatively early (midway through the Ancient age). At this point you can set aside one or two cities for Wonder-building. "Setting aside" includes, of course, making sure that Workers prioritize the tiles within those city's radii. Actually, you can develop a good "feel" of when your period of expansion is going to end, that is, when you can afford to take some cities off the Settler-Warrior queue (or something similar).

Originally posted by BRC
These last few games I have been experimenting with turning my research all the way up at the beginning of the medievil ages in order to get to the wonder techs earlier, so that I can carry pre-builds over and start new ones.

In my experience, you should rarely be lacking a Wonder to prebuild with in the late Ancient age or early Medieval age. Turning your science all the way up at this point is a matter of preference, but AIs will usually out-research or catch up easily, so why bother? For my style of play, I consider getting Chivalry far more important than getting to the Wonder techs. Knights win games...but Wonders make it more fun. It all depends on whether or not we're talking strategy.

Originally posted by BRC
I need to figure out which are necessary, and which ones I can afford to let go.

This sounds dumb, but try not to build too many Wonders. If you find you're building all the Medieval Wonders, you're either having an amazing game, or you're playing on too low a difficulty level. Also, figure out what style of play best describe yours, and determine which Wonders support that style most directly. A lot of the regulars here love to upgrade to Knights or Cavalry in order to dominate with one big rush, so they put a high value on Leonardo's. Others love to have high quality core cities, so they put a high value on the Sistine Chapel. Whatever strategy you choose, you'll play better if you focus.

Originally posted by BRC
I have been sticking in Libraries too, for the run to the wonders. Should I just wait and use the shields on other things??

In my opinion, Libraries aren't worth it if you're just planning to access the Wonders faster. Since the AI doesn't use prebuilds, they will rarely build Wonders within the first few turns after they access the necessary tech (the cascade effect is an important exception to this rule). So, you don't really lose in the Wonder race by just "keeping up" with the AI in tech, rather than surpassing it.

Originally posted by BRC
Is it hard to nail more than your share of wonders on Emp and Diety as a pure builder? It seems to me that warring to trim the AI and generate Leaders seems to be your only shot, at least until Industrial Era. Set me straight here, as I have no experience in this manner.

Yes, it is more difficult to obtain Wonders on the higher difficulty levels as a pure builder. Thus, Great Leaders are even more important. Trimming the AI is a very good strategy, and it just so happens that by doing so you'll generate GLs. It's not your only shot, but it's a nice recipe to follow.

Originally posted by BRC
Are you trying to tell me that the tech lead is worthless? I have seen that many people believe this, but I gotta have it. Or does this just mean that infrastructure isn't that important at this point in the game?

I've never been able to directly link a tech lead to Banks and Universities; usually there's other factors which seem a lot more important, like smart trading and extortion. IMO, Banks and Universities will support your research efforts in the Industrial age, in case you still have some worthy opponents. So, no, in general I don't think they should be used in the Medieval age.

Originally posted by BRC
Ok. Question with Forbidden Palace. I do understand that it is important. How important? example: You can rush (Sistine??) or FP. Otherwise you lose (Sistine). What do you do?

It is very hard to over-emphasize the importance of the Forbidden Palace. But, you should always wait to place it in a good location, since, unlike the Palace, you can't move it once it's finished. So, if the spot where you want to put it is not currently available (i.e. it's in an enemy's territory), it's ok to use the Leader for something else in hopes of getting another GL for your FP. This is a gamble, but one I'm comfortable making if I plan to go the Army->HE route, where I'm certain to get another GL in the near-future. This said, if you have a nice spot available for your FP, I can think of no reason to build another Wonder instead.

Originally posted by BRC
All my ultra early leaders go to army for Heroic Epic.

This is not a bad plan, just make sure your HE comes online ASAP.

Originally posted by BRC
I don't lose cities, really, but I never have really built my defenses around attacking units. Tell me more.

"The best defense is a good offense" (I know, it's been said a thousand times, but it makes sense!). The reason why you should always attack your nearest neighbour is that you don't have to build so many defensive units. Since your cities are not being threatened, the only defensive units you need are as escorts for your offensive units

Originally posted by BRC
OT: What about an AU no wonder game?

I suggested this idea as a future AU course. It certainly would be a learning experience, but may not be all that fun...


Dominae

[Arrian]

I've never been able to directly link a tech lead to Banks and Universities; usually there's other factors which seem a lot more important, like smart trading and extortion. IMO, Banks and Universities will support your research efforts in the Industrial age, in case you still have some worthy opponents. So, no, in general I don't think they should be used in the Medieval age.

WHAT?? No universities or banks in the middle ages? I drop whatever I'm doing to built those IMMEDIATELY. A strong economy allows you to explode into the industrial age and leave the AI in the dust (that's the plan anyway).

Very, very rarely will I pass up the opportunity to build a city improvement (such as a marketplace or library) ASAP. I get around that when I warmonger by simply not having the techs for anything except temples & barracks until I extort them

Medieval wars will be fought primarly with Knights and later Cavalry that are mostly Horseman upgrades with some new builds mixed in. I can do a lot of damage with relatively few Cavalry. Then, as the industrial age begins, I can research very quickly, thanks to my banks/universities. Steam Power -> Industrialization -> Medicine -> Electricity -> Sci Method -> Replaceable Parts *atomic theory & electronics from ToE*

So 6 techs into the industrial age, I will be invulnerable (infantry + artillery + RR's = anything that attacks me will die a horrible death).

That being said, I often end up with large numbers of Cavalry anyway ("large" being 40 or so). They hang out until I have MT, at which point I start disbanding them for shields. If you're militaristic, 4 Cavalry = Airport to airlift in the shiny new Tanks.

-Arrian

[punkbass2000]

Well, if you want my opinion on building Wonders during peaceful games on deity, the simplest response is 'don't'. I rarely find any wonder to be worth the time, shields and risk in this style of game. I typically start pre-building a wonder around the end of the ancient age in hopes of grabbing any of the wonders, but I'm usually pretty far behind in tech and playng catchup. Often this prebuild becomes something ridiculously late, like Smith's. Other than that, I will also prebuild for the ToE, which is about the only useful wonder in the style of game I'm talking about. That, the UN and Apollo, obviously.

[Robber Baron]

Originally posted by BRC
Question with Forbidden Palace. I do understand that it is important. How important? example: You can rush (Sistine??) or FP. Otherwise you lose (Sistine). What do you do?

A key question -- since the dilemma here encapsulates your more basic question, namely: do we tend to get so seduced by Great Wonders that we cramp our growth?

First of all, I totally agree with Dominae and others on the basic point: The Forbidden Palace is not just another feel-good "Wonder" -- it's critical. You will never win at the higher levels of play without one. It has the effect of nearly doubling the size of your production base. Think of it this way: pre-FP you are the size of one civ; post-FP, you're basically two civs. It is the FP that allows the human player to keep pace with the enhanced AI stats (at Emporer, Deity). And the impact comes in terms of shields, money, science, culture (because now you can build more stuff), and, most importantly of all, happiness.

If you are too late throwing up a FP, you quickly run into the danger of falling too far behind the AI's to catch up. By the time Sistine's is available, you're in the Middle Ages (theology). The FP should have gone up by now. If not, it's an urgent priority.

That said, it is of course a "small" GW, meaning any and every civ can build one. It will not be snatched from you. I suppose I can imagine a scenario in which I'd go for the Chapel. Something like, 'I've got a pre-build that I can switch to FP.'
But if you're thinking along the lines of 'I've already built the Heroic Epic, I have 6+ elites about to go into battle, I think I can get another leader soon' ... It's a huge risk. If you get the Chapel, then have to wait another 25-30 turns to build the FP brick by brick, you likely miss out on achieving optimal productivity during one of the pivotal phases of the game.

[Arrian]

First of all, I totally agree with Dominae and others on the basic point: The Forbidden Palace is not just another feel-good "Wonder" -- it's critical. You will never win at the higher levels of play without one. It has the effect of nearly doubling the size of your production base. Think of it this way: pre-FP you are the size of one civ; post-FP, you're basically two civs. It is the FP that allows the human player to keep pace with the enhanced AI stats (at Emporer, Deity). And the impact comes in terms of shields, money, science, culture (because now you can build more stuff), and, most importantly of all, happiness.

Absolutely true. My greatest wish for a while was to get an extremely early, optimal, FP. The idea being that it's like playing 2 civs from (nearly) the beginning.

I got this in a 1.29 game a little while back as Egypt - my two core areas were actually separated by empty land for a little while. I think the FP was rushed in 950BC or something like that. It was awesome - I definitely had Ultimate Power in that game. It was one of my last Monarch games before PTW (for which I have dropped back down, at least for now).

-Arrian

[BRC]

This needs to be quick. I have class here....

Dominae: Thanks so much. A few questions/comments....

Knights win games...but Wonders make it more fun. It all depends on whether or not we're talking strategy.

We are definately talking strategy.

A lot of the regulars here love to upgrade to Knights or Cavalry in order to dominate with one big rush, so they put a high value on Leonardo's. Others love to have high quality core cities, so they put a high value on the Sistine Chapel. Whatever strategy you choose, you'll play better if you focus.

I do both, and to a very high degree. Help!

In my opinion, Libraries aren't worth it if you're just planning to access the Wonders faster. Since the AI doesn't use prebuilds, they will rarely build Wonders within the first few turns after they access the necessary tech (the cascade effect is an important exception to this rule).

I forgot to mention: I have been able to break the AI's cascade each game when they would build the Great Library, and then I would take SunTzu and Sistine within a few turns of each other. Then the others would be easy with pre-builds. I feel that the researching has gotten me there just quick enough to do this.

This said, if you have a nice spot available for your FP, I can think of no reason to build another Wonder instead.

I will remember this. I usually have my FP/Palace setup in place by banking. Is this too late?

"The best defense is a good offense" (I know, it's been said a thousand times, but it makes sense!). The reason why you should always attack your nearest neighbour is that you don't have to build so many defensive units. Since your cities are not being threatened, the only defensive units you need are as escorts for your offensive units

So you leave no units at home? Maybe a small mobile force? Never left a majority of my cities undefended. (Never been attacked on my land either, though)

It certainly would be a learning experience, but may not be all that fun...

My thoughts as well.

WHAT?? No universities or banks in the middle ages? I drop whatever I'm doing to built those IMMEDIATELY. A strong economy allows you to explode into the industrial age and leave the AI in the dust (that's the plan anyway).

This is me, too. Gotta have improvements too. Sets up the late game, in my opinion. Of course, knights do too.

Punkbass: Thank you. It sounds like I won't like Diety.

A key question -- since the dilemma here encapsulates your more basic question, namely: do we tend to get so seduced by Great Wonders that we cramp our growth?

Exactly. Are the shields that are spent on Wonders during the middle ages really more effective than building knights? or improvements? This I do not know the answer to.

It was one of my last Monarch games before PTW (for which I have dropped back down, at least for now).

I was going to move up to Emperor, and then PTW came out. So here I am, at Monarch.

Just so you guys know, I normally am really good about the FP/Palace placement. And I never have it online later than banking.

Arrian and whoever else plays standard maps: Normally, how many cities apart are your FP/ Palace? (In a straight line) The further away they are, the longer you have to wait to get it up (correct?). But, it is probably more effective in the long run.
I just need to know how much overlap is ok. I usually have 3 or 4 cities between my FP/Palace (standard). Is this about right? Assume 21 tile spacing.

Thanks.

[Arrian]

Yep, 3-4 cities sounds about right. Perfectly optimal placement could result in 5.

Hang on a second... let me dig up a link for you... I posted a screenshot of a minimap (actually the map from the F5 screen) of the Egyptian Palace/FP axis mentioned above. BRB.

-Arrian