Paperweight Elites

[jubilation]

Gentlemen-

I hate to admit this, but my elite units seem unusually ... well ... wimpy. Perhaps I'm just very, very unlucky, but over time it seems as if my elites are less battle-worthy than my veterans.

I have lost count of how many times I've seen an elite swordsmen brigade chopped down by regular spearmen, who emerge entirely unscathed -- and promoted! Subsequently my veteran swordsmen will (relatively) easily defeat the newly veteran spearmen.

This has happened far too often to be coincidence. Has anyone else seen this? Could it be that I play France, my pretty pink fencing squad is too foppish to overcome the grim Germans?

--j

[SanPellegrino]

No didn't notice that. Of course, sometimes a regular spearman is sheer invincible, but I tested by reloading if a elite can't do the job, the vet won't either.

[vmxa1]

It seems to vary from game to game. I have games where swords just wiped out spearmen in size 1-3 cities, other where it was a lot tougher. The elite part is not really a big factor as if the RNG is bad, they will win the extra roll of the dice anyway.

[ducki]

I've noticed that I sometimes have a bit too much confidence in that 1 extra hitpoint versus a regular *anything*. Maybe you've fallen into the same trap I do, thinking that "elite" means "special forces" when it actually seems to mean "well fed".

[vmxa1]

I have learned the hard way that it only mean one more roll. If the RNG is impartial and the units are more or less even or the same type, then the extra HP will likely save the day. If I have a slight edge in stats and elite, I will win, unless the RNG is bad for me.

[War4ever]

i have noticed the same thing....when i first played civ3 i would huck anything i could when all my elites kept dying..... so frustrating......

in time i learned to attack size 1-3 cities with vets first... one needs to unlearn civ2 tricks when playing civ3......

the only problem with using vets is u dont get as many leaders......

and leaders....dont get me started... i play china, or some other militaristic civ and i whup three civs into the ground....no leaders....

then i have two archers on the board...meet two sep barbs...become elite, attack a capital...and voila...the first great leader is born and the winning archer is ALWAYS named :War4ever:

so this game is really quite bizarre.....

i stopped playing for 7 months...missed all the patches...started up about 6 weeks ago and realize the 1.29 patch changed alot of things....for the better i might add...

although i don't post much in the civ3 seciton ( i MP civ2 frequently) i really enjoy civ3 now.....

and i am a proud member of the dark side

oh and thanks for the strats..... helps an old rustic dog out !

[vmxa1]

Yes 129f did help.

[Robber Baron]

I find I tend to get carried away with the whole roleplaying thing when it comes to my elite units, and throw them too recklessly into battle at the head of my assaults. If, for example, I have a stack of units closing in on a city with entrenched defenses, I know I should send a few vets in first, to soften defenses .... But then I tell myself the elites should lead the assault to inspire the troops ..... When I get in this mood, I tend to kill off more elites than I should. But then if an elite does triumph, even creates a great leader, and the city falls as swarms of vets and raw regulars follow on, it feels so right!
Sometimes sentiment trumps tactics!

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Robber Baron
I find I tend to get carried away with the whole roleplaying thing when it comes to my elite units, and throw them too recklessly into battle at the head of my assaults.

Historically, Elites don't always lead. For instance, in Roman Legions, the experienced troops stood behind the fresh recruits to "encourage" them and prevent their fleeing. Or another example, Napoleon always held back the "Old Guard" for the coupe de grace.

[Jaybe]

Sent in a 13hp Sword Army against a fortified Spear in a town. The Army had seen better days... this time it fell to the man.

(For crying out softly, some people complain of losing a 5hp unit)

[Zachriel]

Elites get to lose five rounds before dying; Veterans only four. Each round is independently determined, ipso facto Elites are better on average. However, you should try to save your Elites for Leader creation. They should be played as the aforementioned coup de grace.

In this situation, Catapults left the defender at one hitpoint and created this 1/16 opportunity with a 94% chance of combat victory. If you make this play frequently, you will inevitably generate Great Leaders.

http://www.zachriel.com/gotm11/bc0230-Tojo.htm

[dworkin]

I think it is a matter of expectations. Elites can generate GLs. Each elite battle is therefore a potential GL. So I focus on them and get annoyed when they fall on their swords, leave them at home, use the blunt ends, etc.

[vmxa1]

I do not send in elites first unless the expectation of victory is very high as Zachriel example. One other reason is the assault mentioned. If I take the city I want the elites to have their HP intact for defending, if I can. So I will try to hold a few back. It is often situational.

[Theseus]

In desperate situations, I will often use some of my fastmovers elites first (better retreat odds), then pulverize with vets, and the coup de grace by the remaining elites.

[vmxa1]

There you go.