My Conversion to the Dark Side.

[kmill25]

I'm like Luke in ROTJ. I'm conflicted. But I'm beginning to turn. I am a builder. My motto has always been Peace before the gun. I try to go for diplomatic and space ship victories.

But recently I have been getting much pleasure from destroying other civs. Mostly those damn Zulu.

My games start the same. Build cities and a culture foundation, while spitting out settlers and exploring units. Well until recently I would build until my borders have reached neighboring civs and then stop. I would only go to war if absolutly necessary, and even then I would always get help. There's nothing like a 3 on 1 war where I send no troops and let my allies fight the battles.

But now once I reach a neighboring civ, I get all the info I can on them, build up an invasion force and take em out. I usually reduce them to three or four cities and then take them for all that they have. And instead of stopping there I get greedy. And since I usually powerful at the time, I have 5 or so turns of peace, to lower WW and then I take out the next closest civ. Basically the same strats you guys have been talking about since 1.16.

Anyways I'm walking down that dark road and loving it. Is there any cure? Or am I doomed to make the choices of my father Darth Vader? And rule the CIV III empire through conquest.

[vmxa1]

Welcome brother. You will likely revert from time to time.

[Arrian]

You have taken your first halting step toward the Dark Side. Discover the awesome power of Great Leaders, and your journey will be complete.

I too was once a "builder" in that I had no intention of fighting until I was attacked. I concentrated on building cities, improvements and wonders, with a very small armed forces, mostly just 1 defender per city. I traded with the AI and responded to attacks by conquering the invaders. By the time I hit Regent level, I began to get more and more frustrated with being attacked by the AI, or being beaten to wonders despite concentrating on building instead of fighting.

Monarch is the level that finally turned me. I just couldn't manage to build all my shiny wonders anymore. The AI would build some (and often enough beat me to crucial ones like the Sistine) and/or invade me. First I got mad. Then I got even.

I no longer wait for the AI to attack me or steal MY wonders. I hit them first, I hit them hard, and I hit them often. I see AI cities as mine, just not right now. I see AI units as training tools for my troops and potential leader generating battles. If a neighboring AI builds a wonder, GOOD, because it will shortly be mine.

It doesn't always work out. There are a lot of things that can go wrong when you live and die by the sword. So be it.

-Arrian

[kmill25]

And that is what basically helped me to change my ways. The lack of leaders. The loss of Wonders. Being attacked by Shaka, and Cesear, and the Japanese. The simple phrase "Compared to them our Military is weak."

And of course the joy of conquest. Knowing that even though it is corrupt the WHOLE contintent is yours.

[Golden Bear]

I agree - I also have been pulled to the path of conquest against my will. I always preferred to expand and develop. Then I discovered the Zulus - and the Aztecs. Then I started to play on Monarch.

The level of AI testosterone goes up quickly from Regent to Monarch. These guys come calling with troops in the drop of a hat. It used to be that if I saw the Zulus or the Aztecs nearby, there would be a war as soon as I had cavalry. Now, as soon as I bump into someone and they do not look too strong, then I will get into a fight.

Part of it, I think, is that I figure that one less AI means one less AI to trade techs behind my back. Partly, it saves a lot of money that I would spend on Settlers.

I continue to play the French because I like Commercial and I like the timing of the GA - and also because I like the noise the Musketeer makes when he fortifies. On Monarch, it is less of a trick to get somebody to declare war on you just before you get Gunpowder.

BTW, I regard the English in the same category as the Zulus and Aztecs. They are really irritating to have as neighbors. Hmm, maybe because I play the French.

One little wrinkle that I have added in my most recent game is that I used swordsman along with my horsemen in my early Aztec-stomping adventure. The map is a little tighter so their lack of speed was less important.

Of course, I believe that I fight these early wars just in order to buy myself enough space to develop my country. After all, I am a Builder!

Carlos

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Arrian
Monarch is the level that finally turned me. I just couldn't manage to build all my shiny wonders anymore. The AI would build some (and often enough beat me to crucial ones like the Sistine) and/or invade me. First I got mad. Then I got even.
-Arrian

This the main reason I play few games above Monarch anymore. I got my reminder last night on EMP. They get so many wonders and tech swap you into a big hole. I know I wil come back, but it still is annoying to see the blurp that city abc has completed its wonder. My satisfaction is coming now when India (#1 by 500 points at the time) was at war with French (#3) and Greece (#4) and demanded I (Rome #2) give them wine. I said no figuring they had enough on their plate, but no they sneak atacked me. I was surprised. Now not many turns later I have annexed serveral cities, got the other 2 civ to join the fun and I am cutting into the lead big time. Getting to enjoy the fun now, but it is hateful to see them lord over you for so long. They are at war with all civs and will not be in the lead for long or ever again.

[Arrian]

vxma1,

I have pretty much stuck to Monarch. It's all about what one considers fun.

I have gone so far now that I have almost no fear of war. Any time, any place, against anyone. Well, maybe not THAT fast 'n loose, but close.

War really disrupts the AI... and triggering their GA can even be a good thing. You may think fighting a GA-empowered AI in the ancient era is bad, but it depends on the AI. Rome and Persia... no. Bad idea. Kill them quickly, or at least deny them iron.

In my most recent game, however, I (Japan) found myself at war with the Babs after they demanded my map & 20 gold (I told them to shove it). They quickly got alliances with India and Zululand against me. That's a 3 front war, folks. Luckily, India never showed up to the party and were bought off for peanuts (1gpt), but I had my hands full with the Babs and Zulu, both of which had their GA's triggered. This wasn't a bad thing, really. All they did was pump out units for me to kill. I later discovered that the Babs were also fighting Persia (I saw a stack of immortals making a futile effort to beat my horsemen to the Babs' core cities), which meant that almost everyone on the continent was at war most of the time. I took all but 2 Bab cities (the Persians took care of them), and turned my attention to the Chinese, while still fighting the Zulu. After China, back to the Indians (20 turns up ). India died quickly. I actually had a peaceful interlude (yep, even with Shaka)before refusing a Persian demand and sending my Samurai to fight Immortals and Pikemen. Shaka, had managed to stymie me with Impi fortified in a couple of large cities. I had made peace because I had taken horrendous casualties trying to take them, and had to focus on Persia. Finally, with Persia wiped out, I finished the Zulu.

The wars of continental conquest were an ongoing bloodbath, and ended up generating leaders for: army (HE), forbidden, Sun Tzu, Sistine, Leo's, Smith, Magellan's, Newton. Granted, the last few came later, during the "rampage of the Samurai." I build the Pyramids (after a failed bid for the Colossus), Bach and Copernicus. I captured the Oracle (Babylon), HG (Beijing), Great Wall (I forget, unimportant).

Final victory came in the 13th century, as my Samurai horde spilled across the ocean into a silly pink place called "France" that had the last 2 luxuries I didn't control. I farted in Joan's general direction after she informed me that a 6 for 1 luxury deal was "insulting."

I had forgotten to mention this earlier, but that's the final reason I snapped and starting breaking things... you can't get a fair trade if you're doing well.

-Arrian

[Theseus]

Warmongering is the strongest weapon in the Civ3 strategic arsenal. The philosophical transition from builder to warmonger is one of the most difficult to make, and often that's why the rewards are so gratifying.

Once mastered, almost any game is yours to control; you will also find that the other strategic imperatives more easily become weapons in and of themselves.

Welcome to the Dark Side... it keeps getting better.

[Golden Bear]

Here I am stuck at work and you guys are getting me psyched to get back to my game!

I (French, sorry Arrian), having taken all but one Aztec city, was subjected to an all out attack by Babylonians which resulted in a massacre of about 20 units of theirs (those stupid bowmen, mostly). This was followed within two turns by an attack by the English (from the South) which was backed up with Knights. I had like one pikeman anywhere near there but I stalled them and counterattacked (suicide attacks) with cav and swordmen. They asked for peace when they were about to lose 5 knights in one turn - I had to give it to them. I just finished my war production builds and started to build peaceful city improvements when the Babs came over the eastern border again, this time with Knights!

I have had constant war with very little possible to build up my infrastructure. Add to that the fact that the majority of my expansion region was jungle to start with, and I am fighting without a lot of production. Still, I can manage to make it come out right with carefully built roads and lots of horse and now, knights. I built the Great Library and used GLs for FP (I had too for war response) and for Sistine Chapel. I am building something else (not Sun Tzu) while I wait to start Bach's Cathedral. I have built a nice group of knights who might product some more GLs if I can keep a controlled war going.

Fortunately, I can bottleneck the Babylonians at a pair of cities (naturally my capital is on the far western coast away from all this fighting). I lost an outpost city and then fought them to a standstill with the "counterattack the stack from the city" tactic. They just asked for peace but I am only 2 turns from Gunpowder. I like peace but, I am ready for my GA. That means that the war must go on at least 6 more turns. Alternatively, I actually want to attack England since their cities will form a more compact and defensible region. I could punish the Babs a little more, get peace and then provoke a war with England. So many options! Currently I am in Republic (I have a tendency to get into Republic too early because I want to minimize lost Anarchy turns).

A problem with warmongering for me is that it gets a momentum of its own that makes it tough to stop. Maybe some time I just will not stop.

BTW. The game is French, Large, Restless, Large Continents, normal climate, etc. with all victory conditions turned on.

Carlos

[vmxa1]

Arrian that sounds like fun to me. I tend to prefer Monarch as well, but must play a game of EMP/Deity from time to time to remind myself, why I don't care for that game. It sucks for fun for soooo long. It is great fun, once you get on some what of an even footing, but I dislike all of the abuse before then. I have to bear down too much to enjoy myself. I guess I do not have all of the proper moves down.

[punkbass2000]

DON'T DO IT! Seriously, this game can be beaten without war. Give in not, young kmill25.

[Zero]

You can be both builder and a warmonger if you build the empire like a hive as i do... Strong core and zillions of small towns as shell pumping units. You can have best of both worlds!

[Zero]

Originally posted by Theseus
Warmongering is the strongest weapon in the Civ3 strategic arsenal. The philosophical transition from builder to warmonger is one of the most difficult to make, and often that's why the rewards are so gratifying.

Once mastered, almost any game is yours to control; you will also find that the other strategic imperatives more easily become weapons in and of themselves.

Welcome to the Dark Side... it keeps getting better.

actually lot of people make the transition to warmonger as a beginner to builder..... take me for instance, i was a total warmonger, built little or no city improvement and just units since civ I... it was long later until I even tried total builder style. Now I play mostly balnced of both worlds.

Which ever style u start as, i beleive u will be tempted to try extreme of the other world... and ur maturity perhaps is when you learn the balance... theres still room in the middle of balance scale to tip more toward war or peace, and ususally thats wat we mean by warmonger and builder i think, warmongers still spend alot of time building improvement and builders stil build armies of units..

[Theseus]

You are right of course... the best warmongering comes from the best building.

[kmill25]

No builder is ever totally defenseless. I think the warmongering comes from what you do with those armies.

Do you simply keep the as a defense force, never attacking a sovergn(sp) nation. Or do you send those armies on the offensive crushing all that are in your way.

Defense or Imperialism? You decide.