Diplomacy Strategy?

[XOR]

I am playing as a technologically backwards Civ that has been betrayed and sneak attacked and still has never betrayed it's attackers in return (I did eliminate their Civs for that anyway, because I dont "end" wars that I did not start... unless war wariness forces me) the thing is that all Civs I have contact with are fourious at me.

It always goes like that on my games anyway but I'd like to know if there is a posibility to have friendly relations with the AIs (or some of them).

Is there a way to intimidate the AI? Without necessarily going to war with them first? The AI never seems to be intimidated w/o a war.

Is there a way to have friendly relations with it? What makes them friendlier towards me and what makes them more hostile towards me?

Is there something one can do to calm an overwhelmingly powerfull AI Civ that seems to be wanting to engage in a long and costly war (as I said, I dont end them, and large Civs last long...)

What other things can one do/get when having diplomatic relationships with the AI?

[vmxa1]

You can have friendly relations with some. Start early with trading and bribes. When they contact me to ask for some goofy deal, I just give them a few bucks or if my maps are worthless, I give it to them instead. If I am not too lazy, I give the map to all after I give it to one.
Furious is not really what we think of (IMO). It does not so much mean, I hate you as it means, you are weak. If they think of you as weaker they start to work up to abusing you. Check you Military advisor to see if he thinks you are storn or weak vs them.

[jabberwockysr]

20 turns of a luxury as "A gift to the ____ people" gave me polite relations with everyone. Of course the aztec still sneak attacked...

[XOR]

Originally posted by vmxa1
You can have friendly relations with some. Start early with trading and bribes. When they contact me to ask for some goofy deal, I just give them a few bucks or if my maps if worthless, I give it to them instead. If I am not too lazy, I give the map to all after I give it to one.
Furious is not really what we think of (IMO). It does not so much mean, I hate you as it means, you are weak. If they think of you as weaker they start to work up to abusing you. Check you Military advisor to see if he thinks you are storn or weak vs them.

The demographics say that I have the most military service. The Mili advisor says I have an average army when compared to one of the civs and strong when compared to the rest. It also tells me I cant support more units unless I get more gold. I am the one with most territory (I have completely conquered 3 Civs already (China, Japan, and the Aztecs during THEIR own golden age). The 3 declared war on me at the same time and I was at a continous war against them until now. I have the thickest bar at the bottom of the histograph in power and the second thickest in culture.

Im behind in tech but not so far behind. I am, at least, competing the same wonders with the more advanced Civs, it's not like I am their "easy victim".

I have done nothing to them as I still dont have a decent naval transportation unit and they are in a separate landmass, the worst thing I did to them was to terminate the Civs that were supplying them with Wines and Ivory (they were, I could see it how some would have access to Ivory and Wine when I got hold of the lands and tried to trade it).

So now tell me, what are your strategies to get a better treatment in diplomacy from the AI? I always end up having to carry my diplomacy by the point of the spear. The cheapest way to "buy" luxuries, techs and resources is to offer them a peace treaty in exchange for their stuff. It never seems to fail, but it requires of me to stay in a gov type that does not suffer from War Warines (rite now: Monarchy) and that isnt very good for science.

[vmxa1]

Once you have had wars with them, you can only do so much. After things go bad the sword is the only way to keep them in check. If you are strong, they would be inclined to leave you alone. Other factors come into olay such as do you have something they need. Do you have any allies, get some to keep down the number of foes. Are your units the latest? If not upgrade. In the end once all lands are claimed they have to come for you. All you can do is delay that.

[jabberwockysr]

A partial list

Originally posted by XOR
Is there a way to have friendly relations with it? What makes them friendlier towards me and what makes them more hostile towards me?

Trade with them - the more favorable the deal is to them the better, DON'T try to wring out every last gold piece.
Give them maps/techs/resources
Being allied/having ROP/MPP with them
Long term trading relationships
Attacking their enemies
Have an embassy


Trading with their enemies
Razing cities with their citizens in them
Refusing to talk
Not accepting their offers without offering something else/giving them a gold or two
Detected espionage attempt (including expose enemy mole)
Using nukes against anyone (except maybe their enemies?)
Breaking agreements (worse if against them, but they don't seem to trust so much afterwards )

Fear:
Having nukes/having more nukes than they do
Having a larger army


They might still attack you even if you have friendly terms if they see that you are weaker, or that there is nice land/resources on the other side of your land and you refuse to let them through (so just build cities there first )

Edit: Added info from Arrian's post

[vulture]

My last two games, I've had almost everyone else be polite with me for the whole game.

The first one, with 16 civs, I was fortunate enough to wipe out the 4 other civs on my continent before we made contact with anyone else, and I only fought one war after I met the rest of the world. The Zulu's (who I attacked) were furious with me until they disappeared completely, and the rest started off with the usual range of polite and annoyed civs. By not starting wars and being prepared to trade world maps, luxuries and techs quite happily, everyone else became polite and stayed that way. When the Aztecs went on the warpath, I gave resources to the defending countries for free, which they liked and didn't even bias the Aztecs against me. When Babylon lost its last port, and my gift of Iron was terminated before 20 turns were up, they became annoyed, but later worked back up to being polite, and would even trade lumps sums of cash for per-turn deals again (after a while).

The key, I think, is in not starting too many wars (although anyone you've fought against will never like you again), not razing cities, and trading a lot. I was trading something with every single civ, even if I was only selling worthless techs to civs that were a long way behind. And despite some people's claims that the AI always hate you when you get too powerful, I did this despite being the leader in every signifcant area for pretty much the whole game. Trade and lack of agression are the keys.

One last thing - I have a suspicion that involving other civs in alliances when you are attacked will worsen your reputation in the end. In games where I've never made alliances, and traded a lot, it is easy to get everyone polite. When I've made alliances, and stayed with them for the required 20 turns or more, the other civ still develops a bad attitude after a while, especially when it is losing the war. I haven't tested this rigorously, but it is the impression I've got in my games. Honouring all your agreements is important, but you can get everyone mad at you despite that, or have everyone polite with you despite breaking a few treaties.

[XOR]

Razing cities, but I NEED to raze cities, I attack some weak sucker and raze a few cities each time I need more workers every now and then. I also raze cities for population sometimes (even knowing people seem to dislike having foreign nationals in their cities so much that some starve the cities to grow them again).

[jabberwockysr]

I think that the "weak sucker" probably objects to this, no?
In all likelyhood though, anyone weak enough that you'd declare war on them for the slave labor probably hadn't taken the city from anyone else, so only the victim would be mad at you.

On the other hand, maybe no civ likes a slave trader... Does anyone happen to know if it affects all civs mood towards you?

[Arc]

Goal 1 of the AI: Expanding,

Goal 2 of the AI: Techs,

Goal 3 of the AI: Wonders,

Goal 4 of the AI: Strategic Ressources.


*A civilization equal or superior in power to you will become furious as time goes by, whatever your efforts are to be friendly toward it.
*A civilization you declared war to and from which you took a few cities will be furious till the last turn, or until you "wipe them out, all of them" (c)
*When an AI civ has reached a point where your borders are close, and its military power is far superior, it will attack without warning.
*Cases of a Civ attacking you for no damned reasons:
-refusing to honor a deal ("give me strategic_ressource_052 you scum or you shall regret it!")
-being on the "expansion" way
-having a superior/inferior culture and being military weak

How to keep the AI calm?

Trade goods, trade techs, give money, bow to their treats. Refusing constantly to cooperate will grant you with wars, wars and wars!
As coward as it can seems, give away goods but try to sell techs. Ai just love techs and often goes bankrupt to get them.

On pangea maps it is impossible to keep your neighbors from attacking you on the long term. They WILL attack at one point, it's up to you to guess when.
A little hint: make a trading deal with a civ close to you (say the biggest and most dangerous, aka the one who may want to beat the crap out of feeble neighbors) and check the diplomacy screens one in a while. Later, you will notice your big neighbor is furious or embarassed. Whatever you give him, the mood won't change.
->Conslusion: he will attack in 3 turns maximum. Be prepared.

On island/continents maps it is easy. stay on your island(s) and be a gentle trader.


The AI very rarely tries to invade other continent/island. However if you don't want to respect a dela the AI tries to force you to accpet, war will be declared in 5 seconds... and expect at least 2 15+ stacks of unit to land on your territory.

Weak civs are not a problem when taken alone, unfortunatly weak civs tend to ally with stronger (but still weaker than you) civs, and when you have 3 or 4 civ against you it can get REALLY ugly.

There is only one way to counter the Military alliance against you: sign some MPP with the most powerful weak civs, but only if you smell the entire world is going to attack you soon...

Civilizations who INTEND to attack you soon (but didn't enter the conflict yet) will never accept a MPP or a military alliance. Be prepared here again.

Back to playing.

[Arrian]

Civilizations who INTEND to attack you soon (but didn't enter the conflict yet) will never accept a MPP or a military alliance.

Nope, not true. The last game I finished had a perfect example:

I, mighty Egypt, had cleared my continent of the silly English, Iroquois and Russians. I then made contact with the other civs (Aztecs, Greece, Rome, China) who shared the other landmass. I noticed that the westernmost tip of their continent was outside of anyone's cultural boundaries, and so was the source of gems directly adjacent to the NE. So I built a city there.

Nearly immediately (1-2 turns) I saw 2 stacks of troops form up and move my way. Both China and the Aztecs were coming for me. I got my defenses in order just in time, and when China hit me, I bought off all of the other civs to ally with me against them. This includes the Aztecs.

The very next turn, the Aztecs hit me. Their stack of knights had been beelining straight for my city, so this was a no-doubter. The AI went straight for me, but didn't turn down my alliance offer vs. China.

XOR,

The keys to establishing at least decent relations:

1) establish embassies
2) trade
3) depending on the situation, possible gift something (a luxury is perfect for this)
4) DO NOT break your 20-turn agreements, such as trade deals or peace treaties.

-Arrian

ps It sounds like the ratio of your military units to your population is a bit too high. Focus a bit more on growth.

-Arrian

[Catt]

Originally posted by Arc
*A civilization equal or superior in power to you will become furious as time goes by, whatever your efforts are to be friendly toward it.

I find the opposite. It is when I become the largest, most advanced, most powerful civ that others' attitudes become harder to manage. If I am somewhat inconsequential in terms of power and resources, I find it pretty easy to maintain my AI foes' attitudes in Polite or Gracious.

*A civilization you declared war to and from which you took a few cities will be furious till the last turn, or until you "wipe them out, all of them" (c)

It is certainly much harder to secure the respect and trust of a nation from whom you have taken land, cities, citizens, etc., but is not impossible. I have had AI civs that I used as punching bags in the early game vote for me at the UN in the late game (without employing the many exploits to secure a favorable vote).

*When an AI civ has reached a point where your borders are close, and its military power is far superior, it will attack without warning.

Yup - sensing weakness, the AI is much more likely to attack.

. . . . Conslusion: he will attack in 3 turns maximum. Be prepared.

I don't think its quite so etched in stone. I have experienced Furious neighbors who are larger and more powerful but who don't attack. And I have experienced "low aggression" Gracious neighbors, currently in an MPP and RoP with me, attack without warning. There are a variety of factors that influence an AI attack decision - attitude is but one of them.

Civilizations who INTEND to attack you soon (but didn't enter the conflict yet) will never accept a MPP or a military alliance.

I (as Japan) shared a longish border and a mid-sized island with the Chinese. Mao and I were constantly trading goods, and renewed our MPP. Gracious Mao attacked me (abusing his RoP to attack an inland city) onyl 3 (could have been 2) turns into the MPP. He was more than willing to sign an MPP even though he was ready to attack (his attack was not due to his inability to pay gpt - I'm pretty sure he simply sensed my military inferiority and decided to expand a bit at my expense).

Catt

[Theseus]

I've gotten much better lately at achieving a killer tech lead in the mid-game, usually enhanced by or stemming from ToE, furthered by researching whatever is NOT suggested by the advisor, and clinched by getting into the late Industrial research corridor.

I usually wait 4 or so turns after getting a new tech to sell it off to all the AI civs.

I've noticed that, almost invariably, different AI civs are able to afford big gpt deals at different times. Meaning, not just rich versus poor, but even the rich AI civs are sometimes just tapped out.

Why is this important?

Well, if Persia and the other rich AI civs each offer me the World Map, >100gpt, and >100g for Atomic Theory, and America and the poor guys can each only offer me the World Map and 20g, I'll sell it off to the rich guys, and then present it as a gift to the poor.

A little bit later (as in the turn before my pre-build completes Hoover ), when selling off Electronics, I'll follow the same pattern of selling to the rich and gifting to the poor... but this time, one or more of the previously rich will now be poor.

Do this over 6-8 techs... almost everyone, except those that you have recently and egregiously damaged or betrayed, will be polite or gracious.

On top of which, you'll have picked up any stray techs the AI might have researched, any and all luxuries avialable, and you'll be rich as Midas.

[Arc]

I find it hard to respect the 20 turns treaty when you need to wipe the world of civs
I often break peace just to expand asap before infantry-age.

What i said in my post happens quiet all the time, mainly the "i dont wanna hear anything" attitude from the AI, meaning its going to be war very very soon.

Maybe the AI treats all of us differently

[XOR]

K, and why does the AI sometimes give a negative value to luxuries?

Sometimes, with some AIs, you can put a deal on the table with some exchange that the advisor says will be "acceptable" and when I add some of my luxuries to it wothout changing anything else the advisor says they will be insulted by the offer. So it's like the action of ofering an extra luxury for free _worsens_ the deal. It seems that AI's with this attitude are persistant on this attitude and dont trade with anyone at all, it does not seem to be really a bug, the rest of the Civs in the same game wont be as uncooperative.