FP+Palace placement

[Arrian]

Last screenshot, I promise

This is the world map from 1715, with the Palace/FP circled in Blue and Red, respectively, and New Alexandria circled in white. I'm waaaaaay over the OCN, and yet I managed to get roughly 50% shield waste (10 wasted out of 21) and roughly 67% commerce corruption (13 commerce with 24 lost to corruption).

[Theseus]

THAT I get... good placement of the FP for the long-term shape of empire, and meaningful benefits as you had spread to the west.

Maybe I just assumed many of these types of placements were with the FP next door to the Palace...

Glad to see you experimenting with slowmovers; in the long run I'll still take a Knight-level UU, but Legions are the red tide.

[Arrian]

I doubt I would ever build the FP directly next to my capitol. That's too close for me. I'm generally like you - I want an optimal FP site and I'll use a leader to rush it. The Egyptian game, along with the GoUP and many others I've played, went that way.

The Roman game was a good example, however, of when an alternate approach is actually preferable.

-Arrian

ps What do you think of the Egyptian game? Btw, I checked it out: Greece was NOT in anarchy. Their declaration of war was not due to switching gov'ts and running out of cash. Nope, I think the AI just decided "right, I'm getting my ass kicked here, let's go out in a blaze of glory. Charge!"

[Theseus]

Very cool game... I have NO idea how AI suicide works, but that is sure as hell what Alex did.

Cavs and Rifles versus your Tanks and Infantry?

"Thank you sir, may I have another!"

[jkelly]

AI placement of FP?

Has there been any discussion of how the AI places its FP? I can't recall ever even seeing one in a city I've investigated. Have people been able to succesfully target an FP city to cripple AI civs?

[alexman]

Re: AI placement of FP?

The AI always builds a FP. The problem is that it builds it as soon as it becomes available, so it usually ends up 2-3 cities away from his capital.

Because of the early AI FP build, and since the AI never relocates its palace, human empires with a good FP placement are much more efficient than AI empires.

[Konquest02]

********* WARNING, BANANA SPOILER BELOW ***********

What about an archipelago map (i.e. Banana Island) ? Is it better to put the palace at one end of an island and the FP at the other end or the palace and FP on different islands? For those who have played, what was your strategy on this one?

--Kon--

[Catt]

**** Warning - Banana Isle Spoiler Below ****



As with all advice, it is heavily game dependent. On Banana Isle, I built my FP on the very northeast corner of the southern plains / desert area - this was roughly the "center" of my home Isle (including the mini isle). My intention weas to relocate my Palace to another island after conquest. But I never did.

The scarcity of land meant that seriously surpassing the OCN was harder to do; the general "lateness" with which I think most people conducted invasions (how many true warmongers are there like Theseus who conducted ancient age invasions with swords on of galleys - all without the GL? ) and therefore the possiblity to more easily generate WTLKDs and corruption-fighting city improvements; and the corruption fighting power of the Indian commercial trait generally meant very few corruption problems. I conquered all of Persia and took a center slice of England, and never had any significant corruption problems - now, had I gone after Cleo, well then I might have actually relocated my Palace.

Kon - you might consider marking your post as a spoiler - "Banana Isle" is probably intuitively an archipelago game, but I started the game wondering if I were to be isolated and then have to later invade a Pangea with seven advanced AI civs - some who just started the game may not yet know it is like an archipelago map.

Catt

[Catt]

Reminded by another thread. . . . if Palace Mobility is expected to be a tactic employed in a specific game, be very careful in choosing certain wonder locations. Like the FP, a wonder never moves - and often there is no need to move - Adam Smith's is just fine in any city in the empire. But productivity of the science wonders (Copernicus, Newton's, Seti) and some of the production wonders (Iron Works, Military Academy) is greatly influenced by corruption and waste.

It's easy to forget that a Palace move might have unintended consequences. In one of the first or second games where I was really playing with the tactic (as opposed to opportunistically relocating for some reason), I managed to relocate my capitol, only to discover that my city with the Colossus and both Copernicus and Newton's (in my former capitol's sphere of influence) had become a somewhat meager contributor to my total science output! I now try and build the science wonders, the Military Academy, etc. only in my FP core if there is any chance of my later relocating my palace.

Catt

[Arrian]

Catt,

Good points that might not have been immediately apparent to those who don't move their palace much. The Colossus, Copernicus, Newton, SETI are all wonders that are only useful in low-corruption cities.

You're absolutely right that the best way to avoid trouble is to build these in or near your FP. The problem, of course, is that the Colossus in particular is an early wonder (I know the AI doesn't shoot for it, but still) and only very rarely have I managed to build it after I have a FP up and running.

Once the Colossus is built, that city is a serious contender for Copernicus and Newton. If it is built in a city w/o a river, then it's no big deal, as a large city on a river will probably have nearly as much trade as a non-river Colossus city. Throw in a gold mine and it's a wash.

There is nothing more beautiful than a well-placed FP city on a river w/a gold mine and good production.

-Arrian

[Catt]

Originally posted by Arrian
You're absolutely right that the best way to avoid trouble is to build these in or near your FP. The problem, of course, is that the Colossus in particular is an early wonder (I know the AI doesn't shoot for it, but still) and only very rarely have I managed to build it after I have a FP up and running.

Yup - its tough with the Colossus since it usually comes before the FP and it's sometimes a tough trade-off between optimal placement and losing too much of the wonder effects to corruption.

I noticed with considerable admiration your thinkng in your GoUP to leave the Palace off-center until Flight (and the obsolescence of the Colossus) and then to move it to a slightly better location!

Catt

[Arrian]

I just couldn't bear harming my Colossus city... and I don't think the eventual move made much of a difference anyway. A few cities to the SW of my core benifited, whereas a couple of core cities became a tad bit more corrupt.

The Egyptian game I posted in this thread worked out amazingly well because I had a perfect FP in 690BC (or 670, I don't remember).

Your palace hopping strategy pretty much depends on having a FP close to the original capitol location, right? If so, that will usually take care of the Colossus city.

-Arrian

[Theseus]

Doesn't this then argue for determing the likely location of the FP, and building the Colossus in a town in that direction?

For instance, in AU 105, perhaps I should have prioritized getting a second town built south of Thebes, maybe built a temple there and moved directly on to the Colossus, rather than just building military units very early in Thebes.

Hmmm... good lesson.

[sabrewolf]

what map size and difficulty level do you guys play on?

i get 3-4 leaders in an extremely aggressive and permanently-fought games at standard size... and that's if i'm lucky!

and these leaders i'll need for army (--> heroic epic & military academy), sistine, smith's trading, hoover dam, scientific method and if possible also the scientific wonders (colossus, copernicus, newton, seti) ... i don't have free leaders for multiple palace relocations...

[Theseus]

There are times when there are no GWs to be built, and no dire need for more Armies (well....).