FP+Palace placement

[Arrian]

Theseus,

Building the FP near the capitol is pretty easy, since a city which produces 8 shields/turn will do it in 25 turns. How far out you build it depends on a number of factors. Once completed, it will give you a boost in productivity. Obviously not as much as you would get from an optimal one, but a boost nonetheless. Furthermore, it allows you to fully develop a large core area (hereinafter referred to as a "core and a half"). Early in the game, you're a despot. Corruption is bad. The "ring" of corruption fighting power that emanates from your palace and FP is rather small. Plus, you have only 1 anti-corruption building, the courthouse. Later in the game, you will be using a better form of government, you will have access to police stations, and hopefully can manage your cities into WLTKD. You "core" areas are probably almost double the size they were in the ancient era. Thus, the FP that is built in the ancient era near the edge of what was your core back then, now covers your original palace location, keeping it as "core" or close to it.

Using a leader to move one's palace is obviously a luxury. I'm not gonna give up the Sistine for it, if that's what you think. Building the FP early on to have a sort of "core and a half" gives you enough of a boost (at least on monarch) to help with the wonder races.

I think the Roman game I'm going to post will help explain it. It was practically a no-brainer. Rome was just in a terrible spot corruption-wise (the land itself was lovely... it was the ocean to the east and se coupled with the desert to the north that was the problem).

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Doh! I just noticed your caveat... "if it's in a central location."

Hmm. If my Palace is nicely centered, I will most likely just try to rush the FP with a leader in an "optimal" spot.

For a builder, or hybrid buildmonger, it still may be best to manually build the FP for "core and a half" purposes. Some people just don't like early war.

-Arrian

[Theseus]

Arrian, are you sure about the core and a half concept? I thought corruption reduction comes from EITHER the Palace or FP, which one being determined by distance.

So, if you build say, 9 towns, with the Palace in the center, and then 3 more:

XXXN
XPXN
XXXN

You'll get "core" benefits at the Xs, and somewhat less benefit at the Ns.

If inner X builds the FP, you get full benefit at the Ns:

XXXX
XPFX
XXXX

It just doesn't seem like it's worthwhile to me... even if there were no Wonders to build, and I didn't currently need another Army (strange but true, it's happened; I'd still rather build the Army, and hang on to the shell).

[Arrian]

Theseus,

Well, I typically would build the FP two cities over from the palace, and you know my city spacing methods... so that is approximately 9-10 tiles between the palace and FP. Sure, they overlap in terms of corruption-fighting. But that's part of the plan. If they are nice and close (but the FP is better centered), moving the palace later won't cost you a bunch of core cities. They will still be pretty close to the FP.

Again, as with my GoUP and recent Egypt game (which probably had more UP than the GoUP), if I have the opportunity to do so, I'd rather rush the FP in an optimal spot early on and leave the palace where it is (though I did end up moving the palace a tad bit in the GoUP, but that's the perfectionist corruption fighter in me).

This FP close-to-home strategy is for situations that do not allow for rapid early military expansion. In Catt's case, it was a tough emperor start with a rabid, impi-wielding Shaka all over him. In my Roman game, it was a case of asking for "continents" and getting a pangea, plus other geographical concerns. That, and not wanting to fight the Zulu pre-Chivalry (Zululand is where I moved my capitol eventually). I crippled Egypt early with archers (no leaders), which allowed me to expand well, so my FP did boost me significantly, because my empire was pretty big, and all the expansion was westward from Rome for quite some time.

-Arrian

[Catt]

Originally posted by Theseus
Here's where I get confused... building the FP near your original palace (if it's in a central location), and then, at some unknown later date, using a GL to move the Palace.

It seems like a huge waste to me. I'd rather build some other Wonder, especially through the medieval age.


Maybe I just don;t get it...

It's not always the right move, but may be the right move even if the Palace starts in a nice location. The advantage is that manually building the FP doesn't burn a leader, and starts generating great corrruption savings and waste savings early in the game. I'm a big believer in getting the FP up as soon as possible. But I also believe in generating GLs and so really want to have a victorious army and HE built as well. In those games where early leaders promise to be few and far in between, I will usually build the FP and use a GL on an army.

The Middle Ages are certainly wonder rich (especially the first half of the age), but I don't necessarily covet all the wonders. I want Sistine (even with non-religious civ). I want Leo's. I would very much like Bach's (unless on a very small island). Sun Tzu's is nice, provided I'm on a largish landmass. I usually get Adam Smith's just through smart pre-building (can't remember burning a leader on it, but I usually get it). The science wonders are nice. Magellan's is a bonus, usually achieved with a wonder switch if I miss another wonder. Absent a real risk of losing Sistine, Leo's and probably Bach's, I will often be much more inclined to relocate a palace to convert my one-and-a-half core into 2 solid cores.

But Palace relocation really comes into its own in the early Industrial Age, and is a great option from then onwards. First, there are essentially only 2 wonders in the Industrial Age - US and ToE -- either you get ToE and therefore also get Hoover's, or Hoover's can be very tough to get regardless (even with a GL, it sometimes takes longer to research the expensive techs and get to Electronics than it takes the AI who gets ToE to build Hoover's) -- if you lose ToE and have a chance at Hoover's, well I can't think of a much better use for a GL (again, map co-operating). In my experience, both US and ToE can be had via pre-building, and there is rarely a wonder cascade putting things at risk the way it so often happens in the early Middle Ages. After ToE, the only use for a GL is an army -- but if I've followed a typical game pattern, my Military Academy is already producing enough armies for me.

Using the GL for a Palace Relocation now makes sense: (1) I don't want a GL sitting around while I'm still fighting; (2) I can build both courthouses and police stations; (3) I can build factories; and (4) I should have a handle on keeping less than 12-pop cities in WLTKD. This usually means that I can relocate a Palace, and, within 40 or so turns (using some unit disbands and rush buying), relocate it again while leaving behind a pretty productive little "ex-core." With 2 real cores and 1 or 2 "ex-cores," I am outproducing the AI even on Emperor (not enough experience at Deity to say), even if the AI has a similar sized empire in terms of land controlled.

To sum up: (1) manually building the FP and relocating the Palace trades a later GL for an earlier GL (i.e., don't need to use an early GL on the FP); (2) is not always the right move, especially in the wonder-rich Middle Ages; (3) becomes much more powerful upon entry into the Industrial Ages; and (4) is often the only viable use for a GL if one has been cranking out armies from the MA.

Catt

[Theseus]

Catt, don;t get me wrong, I love an early FP too, just not next to my Palace.

I thought the FP in the example screen shot was just about perfect.

For instance, did you build the FP on your home continent in SR's Banana game? I just didn't see the point, and there was too much else to do.

And I LOVE this Palace jumping thing... very slick and sophisticated, as I've said before.

[Catt]

Sophisticated, Schmistophicated - it just better bring results or its a waste of a leader .

I won't build the FP next to my Palace either - like Arrian, I want it at least a city ring or two away - far enough so that I will have the opportunity to develop a true "core-and-a-half" but close enough that I can build it without writing off production in one city for a third of the game. Its advantage, I think, is a variation on the whole "build an army?" question that confronts us upon generation of the first GL - do I trade a current wonder or FP for the HE and increased future chances for leaders?

The reason I'm liking the "manually build FP" more and more lately is that the random map generator and the AU games have been giving me archipelago and/or continents-max-water maps again and again -- its just so much harder to generate a handful of early GLs when every military engagement requires a sealift. With that in mind, the Russia game from which I extracted the minimap for this thread is a bit of an unusual occurence - I had a lot of land for fighting, but OTOH I was so hamstrung for room to expand that I didn't even build my FP until the 1300's AD! I had generated an ultra-early GL from Shaka's first invasion and used it to build the Pyramids to maximize my pop growth in crappy terrain. A second GL appeared before I had enough cities to even think of burning it on an FP - I may have had 5 cities already and so been technically able to build the FP, but the 5 cities were my capitol and one measly quasi-ring I built an army and left it empty until horseback riding.

**** Warning Banana Isle Spoiler ****

Yeah, I built my FP on my main island on the coast due north of my resource island, only about 8 tiles south of Delhi -- intending to relocate my palace to one of the future Indian islands (but now don't see the point). I think the manually built FP in Banana Isle has helped me a bit - I built (IIRC) 9 cities on my main island, only one on my resource island - so no OCN problems early as sometimes happens on a continents or pangea map; but the FP did wonders for the distance corruption that otherwsie would have severely affected my resource island and the two cities I located on the "desert peninsula" stretching west - the bottom of my banana.

Turns out that the Commercial trait, combined with courthouses, WTLKD and eventually factories and police stations is doing wonders -- I own the formerly Persian Banana, and have found that there is no need to relocate a Palace - the island is doing quite well on its own. I'll soon take the whole of the English Banana, and we'll see if a Palace jump is in order. Problem is, I (and others) are building spaceship parts -- I told myself around the time of Industrialization that I wanted to win via domination or conquest, so I need to do some capitol razing soon -- but the game is really starting to lag on my pitiful older laptop - I wil probably just launch and prepare an AAR.

Catt

[Theseus]

I'm not having a problem with corruption in Persia either, and that's with no FP at all!! (but hot damn I gotta lot of luxuries!)

[Arrian]

Ok, the aforementioned Roman game:

Rome, my original capitol (duh) is circled in Yellow. Cumae, where I built the FP during my golden age in 150AD, is circled in blue. Ulundi, where I relocated my palace in 800AD, is circled in black.

[Arrian]

The attached save is from 1300AD. Economic data:

Commerce from cities: 1522
Commerce lost to corruption: 269

That's between 15%and 20% if my math is right, which considering some of the far-flung cities I have, isn't bad (democracy).

The colors didn't come out that great, so in case you can't tell, Rome is by the coast, Cumae is two cities over to the west, and Ulundi is up north.

[Arrian]

Now for the more conventional approach.

Attached is a screenshot of the map of my crazy Egypt game in 130AD. Circled in blue is Thebes. Circled in Red is London, where I rushed the FP in 690BC. I'm a Monarchy, in my golden age. Economic data:

Commerce: 268
Lost to corruption: 67
Exactly 25%

[Arrian]

Here is the save from 130AD, for those who are curious. I just generated a leader on the Russian (southeastern) front. I saved him for the Sistine.

[Arrian]

Since Theseus was curious about it (admittedly, in a different thread, sorry for the slight threadjack), here is a screenshot of my "Sword of Damocles" from the turn upon which the Greeks violated a RoP to attack me (with a Cavalry, which lost). 16 Tanks next to Athens, 12 more to the west, and 12 or so more further west.

The Greeks died badly.

[Arrian]

Here is the 1715 save, prior to moving any of my units. Economic data (democracy):

From cities: 3708
corruption: 903

Roughly 23%, I believe.

I never moved my Palace to the SE, which would center it a bit better, but if you look at the save, you will understand. My southern provinces were not blessed with very good terrain, so a move would have helped little. Additionally, I did not have a leader handy, so I would have had to build it manually.

[Arrian]

Here is a screenshot of the city I am proudest of, New Alexandria. It is my original overseas "colony" city, which I put down to grab the gems on the mountain to the NE of the city.

There was a influence 1 chinese city two tiles SE, and there was (is, captured) an Aztec city four or five tiles to the NE. The gems was in neutral territory. As soon as I founded New Alexandria, both the chinese and aztecs sent stacks of troops my way. I had sent the settler over w/o escort to make sure I got it there quickly, so my troops were en route (and they were offensive units). I rushed a temple, barracks, and three spearmen before the chinese stack (archers) got there. I held against the sneak attack, and bought alliances with the Aztecs, Romans and Greeks vs. China. The Aztecs hit me the next turn (by now I had a harbor and had upgraded to musketmen, and my knights were pouring in). If you care to see the result, retire and watch the replay.

The reason I'm proud of the city is that it is an awfully long way from either my Palace or FP. But with a courthouse, police station, and the appropriate happiness improvements... well, you can see the corruption level. For those who hate corruption... I give you New Alexandria. It took a lot of work, but I got it to the point where it can actually produce things (like the mass transit it is building).