Why you do NOT want to mine shielded grasslands!

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Ahhhh! I see what you're saying, and you're quite right! That's the rub for me though...."mining normal grassland is just as good, as long as you make sure the shielded grassland is worked." Its that last bit that smacks of too much MM for me.

Well... I hate micromanaging my citizens, and will only do it in problem cases. Normally, all my governors are set to manage moods (emphasing production). That's another reason why I irrigate shielded grasslands, these will be picked first by the governor. Otherwise you risk that the AI will pick irrigated unshielded grasslands, and you have no shields whatsoever. Further, having a little more irrigation than strictly needed will mean the governor goes for hills and mountains more readily, another advantage.
Of course, once your city bumps into a population limit (needing a aquaduct, hospital or reaching size 20), it is better to sack him, and do the managing yourself

See....to my way of thinking...in the early game (Despotism), those shielded grasslands are among my first targets to get mined. Once they are mined, even if I move to some other form of government, now I've gotta make a choice. Do I re-work a tile that already has an improvement on it, or do I work a new tile that I haven't gotten to yet? In almost every case, I'll work the new tile, thus putting rework on shielded grasslands very much on the back burner. Eventually, if there's a need to tweak and shift, I'll rework a few to tweak food production, but at that point (possibly dem, and post rr), my workers are on speed and can do it in a turn or two.

True, but this I mentioned in the initial post. In despotism, you have to mine them. But really, I don't believe you don't start any new cities, or have every tile worked by the time you leave despotism, and for all of those it is worth it to do it right away. The biggest advantage of my approach is that GA/mobilization will give you more, and when the time comes of your GA, you want to have all tiles working at maximum capacity, so the shifting has to be done in front.

I try to follow the rule that whenever a tile you're working is not improved, you have too few workers, and should build one extra right away. If you do this, you normally don't have problems shifting the tiles you had to mine in despotism, for a standard map those might total to some 10 tiles at most... and shifting them early will mean you have a long time to enjoy the benefits, even if they are small advantages without a GA.

I usually take the opposite approach....I tend to specialize my tiles out as much as possible....regular grassland (non-bonus) doesn't produce any shields if its irrigated, so when I irrigate and RR it, it produces nothing but food and coin. I dunno....just makes it easier for me to tell "at a glance" what tiles are doing what.

Specializing may make it more easy to spot the function of a tile, but this is about the only advantage it has. Balanced tiles are better pure efficiency wise. After all, there is no difference where you put a mine, it will give +1 shield on each possible tile. Similarly, irrigation will give +1 food on all tiles. And RR will add 1 to whatever improvement is there (the only exception being the cows and wheats, cows get +1 shield and +1 food, while wheat will get +1 food and +1 shield when mined). Again, the GA and mobilization is when you see the biggest advantages, but also wihtout this it pays off to have more balanced tiles, you can have more food to be able to work hills while still getting the bonusses from the shielded grasslands.

Originally posted by steven8r
Then, once my cities reach a sufficient size (I too, prefer smaller sized cities) to need more food, I will then irrigate-starting w/ the SG's.

steven8r, consider this: if you have a hill nearby, you have an advantage of using a mined SG when you're city is below size 2! So at most, you'd need one mined SG, when the city reaches size 2 it is better to have an irrigated SG + a mined hill worked. In hill country (something the occurs frequently in the neighbourhood of SGs), the advantages of irrigated SGs will be biggest.

DeepO

[Velociryx]

::nodding:: I get you....LOL...I never noticed the governor's preferences cos I generally allocate the workers myself (SMAC habit).

The only thing I guess I'm not clear on is....what are the specific production effects of GA/Mob, and why do they impact balanced tiles "more" or "better" than specialized tiles? That's about the only part I'm not getting/clear on.

-=Vel=-
(enjoying the thread very much!)

[alexman]

Good thread, DeepO.

Originally posted by Velociryx
....what are the specific production effects of GA/Mob, and why do they impact balanced tiles "more" or "better" than specialized tiles?

During GA/Mob you get an extra shield in cities that already produce at least one. If you irrigate unshielded grasslands, you lose that bonus.

[Velociryx]

Gotcha!

When I found the Mob thread, I figured it was the same basic effect as a GA, and yes! Absolutely in those two cases, there are clear and tangible benefits to going with mixed production! The chief benefit in my mind though, is that by getting in the habit of doing it that way all the time (ie - even in games where you never use mobilization and have less-than-perfectly-timed GA's, or play with culturally linked abilities off and don't get a GA at all) is that when you *do* run into situations where you get the extra shields, it puts you that much farther ahead.

Outstanding....

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

Yeah, I think that's really the point - in your GA or mobilization:

mined shielded grassland - 3 shields, 2f
mined normal grassland - 2 shields, 2f

Irrigated shielded - 2shields, 3f (4 w/rr)
Irrigated normal - 0 shields, 3f (4 w/rr)

So, if your city is in need of an irrigated grassland tile, it's best to go with the shielded b/c you will net 3f, 2s (4/2 w/rr) from it and 2f, 2s (2/3 w/rr) from a normal one, adding up to 5f, 4s (6/5). If you did it the other way 'round, you would get 5f, 3s (6/4). During a Golden Age or using Mobilization, that is. However, I think the key thing to remember here is that we are discussing a difference of one shield.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

First of all, indeed this becomes more clear when you are in a GA or mobilization. Arrian, you are very right that for the combination of a shielded and an unshielded grassland, it will only net you 1 shield. But, that one shield represents a 33% increase, surely this is not something light! (I know, the effects are fewer when you have a later GA, but at that moment you are likely to have factories up and running, which multiplies it again)

Another remark is that even in despotism, it is best to have mined unshielded grasslands in a GA. In despotism, your mined shielded grassland does not give you any bonus, as it doesn't go from 2 to 3, whereas your unshielded grasslands go from 1 to 2. This is not a reason why you would have to irrigate SGs in despotism, but it isn't a disadvantage in a GA.

The second reason why you need balanced tiles has a smaller advantage, and is way more difficult to explain, it is too situation dependent. But lets start, for simplicity, from the following example: size 2 city in the industrial age (so with RR), with hills, normal grasslands, and SG nearby. There are a number of possibilities how you can improve your tiles, which all give other rewards. But, the best I can think of is having 1 SG mined (+RR), with 1 mined hill. This will net you 2 food + 1 shield from the city tile, 4 food + 1 shield from the SG and 1 food + 4 shields from the hill. Total 7 food + 6 shields, not bad for a size 2.

If you would try out any other combination, you can have more production by mining the SG plus a hill, but this will net you 5 food + 8 shields, barely adequate to grow. Or, you can mine 2 SGs, netting 6 food + 7 shields. This would also be a good city, but growth isn't super, and the governor will not choose it. Other possibilities give fewer food and production, so we won't consider those.
If you have larger cities, the question becomes which grassland will be the first to not be worked, and irrigating SGs will always ensure that they are worked, where irrigating normal grass will not do this. After all, the best way to see that production is high if you can have those hills worked, for which you need some irrigation.

This might not be a proof that balanced is always better, but from the experience I've got with all kind of situations, I think that balanced tiles, and thus irrigated SGs is better, if only to let the governor choose the tiles instead of managing them yourself. But, I'll include the general disclaimer for this thread: In specific situations, it might not be the best thing to follow

DeepO

[Velociryx]

What strikes me as funny is how counter intuitive that is.

Think about it.

We're talking about a game that seeks to model the sweep of human history, and because of prevailing game mechanics, we end up in a situation where it's actually preferable to irrigate the hills (if you could do such a thing) and mine the plains.

Silly.

Remarkable, but silly.



-=Vel=-

[DeepO]

you're right... but if you start from the idea that more balance is better in a civilization, it gets intuitive again Specialists are always out-liers, even if you need those from time to time...

DeepO

[Nakar Gabab]

Maybe those Peruvians are onto something after all...

[Ironikinit]

Quite obvious when you think about it, and doesn't require micromanagement in the least, unless one automates at first opportunity. The increased production under GoldAge and mobilization should generally be substantial compared to players who regularly mined grasslands with the bonus resource and irrigated those without. Where'd that idea come from anyway? It's good till you hit republic, I guess, but that's like a fifth of the game.

So, never bother to mine bonus grasslands or mine early in the game and irrigate later?

[DeepO]

Ironikinit, I do start with mining the SGs in despotism, it will give you the extra edge needed. But I found it is not a big deal to redo those once you hit republic. The reason is that only a few cities will have grown at that time, the others are at most size 4 (an exception, normally they will build a settler when they reach 3). Therefore, it was not needed to mine everything in sight, I will only improve what is really used, and if I have extra workers let these start on mining hills, irrigating plains, etc. This way, the moment you switch to republic you have the full advantages of the terrain. This also mean that only a few SGs will have been mined, and these are easy to convert. plus, in cities where an abundance of shields are present, a few of them should have been irrigated already.

It is a bit of extra micromanagement, but it pays off. Plus, later in the game, I will generally set 85% of my workers to Shift+A, and they do a relatively good job on it. The other 15% I use to correct things, one of those corrections being that I irrigate SG where needed, and mine normal grass when I have too much irrigation. This, together with the manage mood governor, will make my cities running at near peak efficiency without much of the tedium of doing it yourself. You just have to correct the AI sometimes, but in general it does a good job.

DeepO

[King of Rasslin]

Bah! I always mine up my shielded grass. The early production is needed to win the wars. Early game power is what it is all about, guys! Arrian knows what I mean.

I would use DeepO's strategy on a 3 billion year (hilly) map. On normal maps, I mine just about everything. You only need 1 irrigated tile per city for a good growth rate. 3 food per turn with a granary is good growth. I don't care about industrial ages because the game is decided by that point, and I don't have the patience (or computer hardware ) to play 10 minute turns.

[Ironikinit]

Maybe one of those questions that will be answered by MultPlay.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Velociryx
What strikes me as funny is how counter intuitive that is.
...
because of prevailing game mechanics, we end up in a situation where it's actually preferable to irrigate the hills (if you could do such a thing) and mine the plains.

Bit like the gold/science relationship. Build the Great Library and get rich.

[Cort Haus]

I'm wondering if there's a way of using this approach to maximise the despotism GA. I suspect not, as the only way to benefit is to have a lot of mined non-SG and irrigated plains. It's difficult to have lots when cities are pumpin' settlers, so it'd mean not expanding much, but growing three or four cities up then triggering the GA.