Technology Trades Question

[Theseus]

You can definitely upgrade to UUs, but Cavs are a dead end... Tanks and Panzers have to be built from scratch (except that you can pre-build, of course).

I haven't played much with the Zulu or Aztec, but I think the whole trick is to use your fastmovers to deny dangerous early civs the resources required for their UUs (actually, deny EVERYBODY access to Iron and Horses).

Calling Doctors Aeson and Vel? Calling Doctors Aeson and Vel? You're needed in the emergency early warfare room, stat.

[Catt]

Originally posted by steven8r
I have a couple of ?? about Arrian's and Theseus's suggested strategies.

Can you upgrade TO a UU? I remember playing Germany that I was very disapointed that I couldn't turn my hordes of Cavalry into Panzers. It may just be the mod that I'm playing--in which case I can change that.

Any fine tips on early warfare regarding 'Tech Smacking'. I was playing the Zulu on Deity and waaaay behind on techs. I decided to 'Smack the Tech' out of the Persians. By the third or fourth battle--which I'd been winning, all of a sudden my Archers were getting slain unmercifuly by Imortals. Next thing I know, I'm looking at my battered face surrounded by jeering leaders.

I guess the obvious solution is start the fight earlier and/or deny them iron, but any other early strats?

In earlier versions of the game upgrading to UUs (or from UUs ?) was problematic - this has now been fixed. The reason you can't upgrade to a panzer is because nothing upgrades to tanks - cavalry is the last in a long line of offensive upgrades (chariots - horsemen - knights - cavalry).

There are a lot of threads on finer tips on the "Technology Research by War" strat, and I won't try to compile them here (you hit two obvious pieces of advice) - but a few short one's:

(1) overwhelm with numbers. Even inferior units can crush a superior foe, but you need to hit them with numbers and cripple them fast - if you fail to slice and dice big chunks from their empire quickly, you will face the AI production bonuses and technology advantages that you just experienced - at least those impi occasionally retreat from the immortals, huh? A swarm of horsemen protected by those wonderful 2-move impis can be a hellish force to face - but if you don't blitz the AI at full speed, you will bog down.

(2) when you finally do achieve relative unit superiority, be prepared to use it quickly, and then use it quickly - it will fade soon enough at Diety. You should discover horseback riding with 15+ chariots sitting in barracks-enabled cities near your chosen target's borders and enough gold to upgrade them all. The AI will have (or does have) horsemen soon enough - you need those 15 horsies on the attack immediately (substitute Chivalry / Knights or Military Tradition / Cavalry as needed).

Just a few thoughts.

Catt

[ShowTime]

Well ok, I'm now playing a game as the Germans.... I built up a few cities and temples then massed up alot of swordsmen. The Persians on the other side of the world decide to declare war on me for not letting them get my territory map for free. Then next turn the English sign a military alliance with them against me...by the next 2 turns im fighting against the babylonians, zulu, french, and greeks(my neighbors) too. So I send about 10 swordsmen to a little greek city by my border and they all got slaughtered by one hoplite. I send some more across the jungle to attack my other neighbor(babylonians) on the other side but they have alot of spearmen and beat me....Then the last handful of turns I have been defending against the whole world kinda good only losing 2 cities vs everyone. Hmm I wonder how long can I hold them? Not very I'm guessing. So i'll just start a new game using that fast attack/upgrading strategy yous suggest

[DrFell]

Zulus vs Aztecs and Resource Denial

The Zulus are the best resource denial civ in the game, for a couple reasons. You have scouts, and you also have Impi. One unit takes care of resource denial in peacetime, the other takes care of resource denial during war. Aztecs are also good, but the strategy for them is slightly different and more aggressive.

Zulus
Playing as the Zulu, send in your scouts to sit on iron supplies in your neighbors' territory ASAP. Early on in the game you should build a plentiful supply of scouts. The AI will demand they leave periodically, but you can nearly always move them back onto the resource in time (as the borders will rarely be more than 2 squares in the ancient age). Once you have enough scouts to take care of all the iron, switch to building Impi and horsemen (assuming you've hooked up horses, otherwise you're going to need to build swordsmen instead). Use the chariot->horseman upgrade path to speed things up (warrior->swordsmen in the case of no horses), and don't forget that both Impi and chariots are great as you can pop-rush both of them cheaply, so do this if you have the luxuries. Position your Impi in strategic locations, making sure stacks of several (2+, depending on map size and size of your opponent) Impi are prepared to move in as soon as you declare war, and preferably seize all the iron sources on turn 1 (and the horse resources if possible). Also build some veteran Impi to send along with your horsemen, to protect from any counterattacks.

When the time comes for war, you should be able to send your horsemen in to capture the opponent's key cities. Aim for any horse resources he owns, as well as the iron resources (lower priority) or luxuries, especially any ones you don't already have. Also aim to take out and raze his capital if he's built a wonder other than Pyramids or Great Library (in which case you want to capture the city). The war should go easily for you, as he is unable to construct swordsmen, and must rely on archers or horsemen for combat. The problem with horsemen vs Impi is the lack of retreat for the horsies... he will likely end up suffering pretty nasty casualty rates. All in all, a solid strategy, if executed properly the AI should stand no chance, unless he has developed gunpowder of course (in which case you can also deny his saltpetre resources too, if you have the time!).


Aztecs
Now, the Aztecs are definitely different. The big difference between the Aztec and Zulu strategies are defined by the lack of Aztec scouts. If you really want to deny resources, you will have to be either lucky (in that you may be able to cut the roads leading the resource to the enemy civ's capital in no-mans-land, e.g. a gap between the culture borders), or you will have to declare war outright at the start, and head in and sit on the resources. Obviously, in a bigger game this option may be far from desireable, as you don't want to tie up your resources in a big war too early on. You will also likely encounter more resistance, end up capturing more heavily pop-rushed cities, and in general end up getting far less for the effort you put in.

The best use, resource denial wise, of the Jaguar Warrior, is to set them up close to the resources of your target civ. Since they are cheaper, you may also want to set them up near major road systems, etc. The idea is to build up in nearly the exact same way as you would if you were conducting a Zulu rush, minus the Impi of course. However, in this case you want to head in and cut up the enemy after you declare war. When war is declared, tear up the major road systems, cut off access to the horses, and sit on the iron waiting to pillage it next turn. This is less desirable than denying the enemy the resource right from turn 1 (or thereabouts ), but it is still far better than facing a dangerous nation with the full capability to produce horsemen and swordsmen, or worse. You will be facing stiffer resistance initially, but you can send in lots more cheap Jags to try and wear the enemy down (works especially well against horsemen if you actually attack them).

In conclusion, not as good as the Zulus, but still pretty decent, and superior to a regular civ with a more expensive or slower UU.

[Theseus]

Originally posted by ShowTime
Well ok, I'm now playing a game as the Germans.... I built up a few cities and temples then massed up alot of swordsmen. The Persians on the other side of the world decide to declare war on me for not letting them get my territory map for free. Then next turn the English sign a military alliance with them against me...by the next 2 turns im fighting against the babylonians, zulu, french, and greeks(my neighbors) too. So I send about 10 swordsmen to a little greek city by my border and they all got slaughtered by one hoplite. I send some more across the jungle to attack my other neighbor(babylonians) on the other side but they have alot of spearmen and beat me....Then the last handful of turns I have been defending against the whole world kinda good only losing 2 cities vs everyone. Hmm I wonder how long can I hold them? Not very I'm guessing. So i'll just start a new game using that fast attack/upgrading strategy yous suggest

When playing as Germany, your first attack should be with Archers, against anybody except Greece and Rome.

Also, you are one tech away from Iron Working... that should be your highest priority. I would attack, again anybody but Greece and Rome, as soon as I had six reg and vet Swordsmen ready to go out (with whatever's left of the Archers, too).

This should happen well before embassies and especially Mapmaking, btw. Sound like you may have waited too long.

At this point, I'd be saving a lot of gold, to make sure I create embassies ASAP, and get military alliances with the strong early civs (Greece, Rome, Persia). I'd be pumping out vet Swordsmen. Probably the only thing I'd be focused on otherwise would be Horseback Riding.

Lastly, even if far away, if Persia asks for my territory map, I give it up, no problem. Of course, my mounted forces remember the shame...