The Virtues of being Industrious....

[Ethelred]

Only AFTER they take your cities and ther roads are no longer yours.


Unless of course you give them a Right Of Passage agreement.

You can't move on their roads either without a ROP or conquest.

If they take all your roads you have allready lost. If you don't have roads you will lose. Even on Chieftan.

[King of Rasslin]

An industrious civ can make a road in 2 turns instead of 3. Big deal. The true power is being able to make a mine in 3 turns. This means early productive power. An industrial civ can easily get the Great Library or another wonder very quickly because it can make mines so quickly. This actually helps you get a cultural victory. If I was going for a cultural victory, I would choose Eygpt. I think it's really cool, because Eygpt is the most cultural nation of all time in real life

[alexman]

You are right about Industrious Wonder-producing capabilities. On Monarch and below, you can get just about every Wonder in the game if you want to. CivFanatics most recent tournament game demonstrates Egypt's awesome cultural power. Try it if you haven't already!

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
An industrious civ can make a road in 2 turns instead of 3. Big deal.

How about capturing (or buying) foreign workers? If you use one of them plus one of yours, you're back to building roads double speed, just like mines.

[Travathian]

Not sure if someone mentioned it or not, but dont forget that double speed workers also chop down trees faster as well, meaning you can build those temples and courthouses in distant lands much faster.

[Velociryx]

I agree that the ability to crank out a mine quickly is a hugely important advantage of Industrious civs, however, I must disagree where roadbuilding is concerned.

The benefits gained by being the first civ in your vicinity to have an operational military road network are *enormous,* as it speaks directly to your ability to project your power.

Such an early road network allows you to make lightning strikes with a mixed force of, say, warriors and archers on civs who are barely starting their own road networks....and the power is magnified even more once you get mounted troops (essential for projecting your power on huge maps, and absolutely devistating in combination with the road network on smaller maps).

-=Vel=-

[King of Rasslin]

Vel, I just realized the power of industrious in a few special cases. Although other traits are better in most circumstances, imo, I just started a game in a jungle. I quit, of course.

But you can't just quit a game if you are in a lousy starting position. Industrious is actually great if you start in a big jungle or forest. Of course, I play to win, and even industrious isn't going to save me if I have an awful start.

Roads give commerce and mobility, and I can't see why you can just connect your cities while ignoring gold and research for a while. When another civ gets an advance, that makes the advance easier to get. This lowers the importance of roads for trade. Because of this, you really don't need a lot of roads for mobility.

Industrious is most useful in the industrial era, of course. Its nice to cover your whole empire in railroads in a few turns when they are first available. This results in a huge increase in power more quickly than non industrious civs. Unfortunately, I have already won the game by then. Its a good trait, but I like others more, depending on how my starting location is. It isn't going to be useful in an island map because you are isolated. In a huge pangaea, expansionist would be useful. Industrious is good when you want some really fast mines, not a trade advantage. It isn't as flexible as religious or scientific, but its good.

[Theseus]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
When another civ gets an advance, that makes the advance easier to get. This lowers the importance of roads for trade. Because of this, you really don't need a lot of roads for mobility.

Huh?

[King of Rasslin]

Ok, roads that are not for mobility either give you gold or science. Both decrease in value as time goes on. A comp will sell you a tech cheaper if it has been around longer. Gold isn't as good later on because buildings and units are more expensive. Therefore, you can get away with making less roads than normal early on. The trade isn't as important as the speed at that point. Even a non industrious civ can make the roads quickly enough for military use.

[Harovan]

Quick roads also connect luxuries earlier. That increases happiness and makes larger cities effective, because they work without entertainers.

[King of Rasslin]

True, but happiness isn't an issue early in the game when you are pumping out settlers and workers. I don't let any of my cities get bigger than size 4. 2 warriors and a temple is perfect, luxuries come into importance later when the land rush is over. By that time, I will have them connected without the help from industrious.

[Theseus]

I think I got it. You're saying that non-industrious civs can build roads as quickly as is needed or can be utilized.

I actually sort of agree, but the exceptions, where high-speed workers make a difference, are what makes the trait valuable to me:

* High-speed roadbuilding to a specific military objective.

* Clearing jungles.... especially those directly adjacent to my cities and at the front.

* High-speed forts.

* High-speed railroads... both connecting all cities / forts, and for the productivity boost.

Also, regarding your last post, luxuries have become more important to me in the early game, as I have recently been building fewer but larger cities early on. 7 pop in despotism, with only a temple for happiness, requires luxuries to maintain full productivity.

[King of Rasslin]

Making fewer but larger cities is a big mistake in this game. Having a lot of small cities is a long term investment, plus it means you will get more resources. Expanding comes first, the infrastructure can wait. You won't have luxury issues if you are big and have more luxuries in your borders.

I haven't really used forts that often. I am more offensive, but I would probably use forts in a deity game where the AIs would all team against me at the start of war

I am considering making forests on top of forts for an additional 15% defence bonus. Is this worth it? I haven't tried it yet. I might choose to leave some jungle standing at the border for the defence advantage.

Although not a game changing quality, industrious is also useful when you are bored as **** moving around 40 workers every turn!

[High Lord J]

wait a sec... so if you are in your terriorty and you are at war with your enemy your roads won't improve there speed just as much as yours? what about in neutral terriorty?

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by High Lord J
wait a sec... so if you are in your terriorty and you are at war with your enemy your roads won't improve there speed just as much as yours?

Correct. The enemy can't use your roads and you can't use his.

what about in neutral terriorty?

There both sides get the road movement bonus.

[Theseus]

King,

Hmmm.

There is no spoon.