To raze or not to raze?

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by AJ Corp. The FAIR

to fully exploit the FP the English should raze the surrounding cities and settle afterwards, to get new and extra core cities for themselves. At this stage in the game the draft unhappiness will cripple the cities too much to keep them IMO.

AJ

Every German city in the area was booming, as good as any native city.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by BillChin
It is definitely additive. Anyone who has fought against a Communist AI knows the problem all too well.

I've played against Communists, but I don't agree. Unfortunately, I do not have the fact and figures to back up my assertion, but I do know that I can take a formerly Communist town and turn it around in a reasonable amount of time.

I do not know why we have different experiences in this matter.

[kolpo]

Another disadvantage of razing is reputation. Like the manuel indicates reduces razing your reputation. Reputation inceases the chance other nations will break there treaties based on the manuel, I think it makes also getting treaties harder(can anyone confirm?). I don't know which otehr effects reputation has.

[BillChin]

Originally posted by Zachriel
I've played against Communists, but I don't agree. Unfortunately, I do not have the fact and figures to back up my assertion, but I do know that I can take a formerly Communist town and turn it around in a reasonable amount of time.

I do not know why we have different experiences in this matter.

I'm not sure what you disagree with. Do you disagree with my intepretation of the rules? The rules are that unhappiness is additive and a city can have 400 turns of built up unhappiness after pop-rushing or drafting 10 citizens. This is not uncommon and many players have reported this. I did say it is possible for a player to start from -10 and get to +10 with enough bonuses. However, most players would rather start from 0 than -10 if given a choice (razing and resettling vs. capturing and inheriting unhappiness).

Do you disagree with my proposed fix? The proposal is to stop AI pop rushes and drafts at a certain level of unhappiness. The level I would test first is when half the pop is entertainers. I believe all players want a semi-rational AI that does not commit suicide, inherited unhappiness or not.

You may disagree that there is a problem at all. That is fine, but I believe you are in the minority on this issue. In my opinion, AI suicide through pop rushing and drafting is just plain dumb and turns the late game into a farce. I do not see anyone defending the current AI behavior.

Maybe you agree on fixing the suicidal AI, but think that the inherited unhappiness is fine. Here we can find some common ground. If the AI pop rushing and drafting is limited, inherited unhappiness is not that big a deal.

I know why we have different experiences. You are a better player. You have tons of gold to rush improvements in all captured cities. You never use Communism as your form of government. You probably have both Sistine Chapel and Bach's Cathedral. You probably have five or more luxuries. Maybe you need to understand that some players are not as proficient. Some players do not get those wonders. Some players are gold poor and luxury poor. Some players enjoy playing as Communists.

What it boils down to is that some players play the game differently than you do. Just because you are a more efficient player does not mean that other players do not have legitimate concerns about the rules. Just because you are a better player does not mean that everyone aspires to play the game the same way you do.

I believe that every player needs to find their own play style. The rules need to encourage this, rather than funnel everyone into a narrow band that works and a wide band that doesn't work.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by BillChin

I'm not sure what you disagree with. You may disagree that there is a problem at all. That is fine, but I believe you are in the minority on this issue.

I just don't see the unmanagable levels of unhappiness, nor do I see it lasting for so long. That may be just my personal experience, an inadvertant aspect of my playing style, or I might very well be wrong with the effects not noticed by yours truly.

(BillChin, I'm not a better player than anyone else, and am very interested in everyone's opinion. I merely want to share my own experiences as one among equals. )

[Inverse Icarus]

don't raze. play the communist dream and pop rush a ton of units, starve the city, and disband it by building a worker / settler.

then you can move the city to a USEFUL location (the AI still builds cities ONE SPOT AWAY from a perfect city)

[alexman]

I just wanted to say that Arrian and BillChin are right. I did a quick test and I can confirm that the pop-rushing unhappiness duration is indeed additive.

Originally posted by UberKruX
play the communist dream and pop rush a ton of units, starve the city, and disband it by building a worker / settler.

My test also confirms the rumors that when you disband a city, any pop-rushing unhappiness jumps to a nearby city.

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by alexman
My test also confirms the rumors that when you disband a city, any pop-rushing unhappiness jumps to a nearby city.

i've never noticed that...

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by UberKruX
don't raze. play the communist dream and pop rush a ton of units, starve the city, and disband it by building a worker / settler.

then you can move the city to a USEFUL location (the AI still builds cities ONE SPOT AWAY from a perfect city)

Ah. Papa Joe Stalin. Brings back memories, the pogroms, the land redistribution, the population dispersions. Those were the days.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by alexman
I just wanted to say that Arrian and BillChin are right. I did a quick test and I can confirm that the pop-rushing unhappiness duration is indeed additive.



My test also confirms the rumors that when you disband a city, any pop-rushing unhappiness jumps to a nearby city.

You are correct but you are missing something.

If you have more population you use up the unhappiness faster. If you keep the city at one pop it will take something akin to forever but if you increase the population each person is using up some of the accumalated unhappiness. It still takes time of course but not hundreds of turns.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Ethelred


You are correct but you are missing something.

If you have more population you use up the unhappiness faster. If you keep the city at one pop it will take something akin to forever but if you increase the population each person is using up some of the accumalated unhappiness. It still takes time of course but not hundreds of turns.

Now I'm confused.

[alexman]

Wow, Ethelred!! You're right!!

So if you conquer a city with x unhappiness due to pop-rushing, and rush-buy happiness improvements so there are at least x citizens left after starvation due to specialists, you would restore it back to zero unhappiness in 40 turns maximum!!! I just saw this happen before my eyes!

That's good to know! Thanks!

[rpodos]

I think I understand.

Wouldn;t it also make sense to immediately grow the city to as many pop as it can support, by adding workers and settlers?

R

[Ethelred]

I tried that. Instant riots. You have to have enough content and happy faces so you can get the food you need.

I almost always go for a temple first. What comes next depends on the situation. A marketplace can do a heck of a lot if you have the luxuries.

Its likely the next patch will decrease the number of turns for unhappiness from what I saw someone at Firaxis say. They thought it might be too much. I sure think its a heck of a lot.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by rpodos
I think I understand.

Wouldn;t it also make sense to immediately grow the city to as many pop as it can support, by adding workers and settlers?

R

Ethelred is right. In my experience, it is usually best to wait for a few improvements before pumping the pop.

I nearly always rush the temple, then the cathedral, though marketplace is often a good choice early. If you don't have substantial cash flow in the core of your empire, a lot of this may be academic.