The Care, Feeding, and Death of Neighboring Civs

[Dominae]

kroym, the best way I've found to get the AI to declare war on you is to demand that they get out of your territory, or declare war. If they aren't stomping across your lands already, there are a few ways to ensure it happens. For example, you could get a nearby civ on one side of your borders to declare war with another civ on the other side. The AI is guaranteed to send plenty of troops through your territory to fuel the war effort. Keep contacting them as they do this, demanding Gold and such, and that they get off your lands. Eventually they'll get so angry at you that they will decalre war. In this case, you're in a great position to attack them because all their troops are far away from home. You can surely work your goal of grabbing a source of Uranium into this plan.

Hope this helps.


Dominae

[kroym]

Dominae,

Thanks for the tips. I'll give them a whirl. One question, though:

Originally posted by Dominae
you could get a nearby civ on one side of your borders to declare war with another civ on the other side.

In the current game I described, I'm in a pretty good position, geographically at least, to do just that, but what's the best way to instigate hostilities between two OTHER Civs? I've thought about getting an alliance set up and get someone else to attack my alliance partner, which would obviously drag me into that war, but that's a nuance I'm not too up on how to accomplish: getting Civ A to attack Civ B.

[Arrian]

rpodos,

Yes, I am obessed with luxuries. Here's the thing - if you have 6-8 luxuries, the Sistine & Bach, you can flat-out declare war and crush a civilization as a democracy without even feeling war weariness. Plus, I have been trying to maximize score lately, and I want things set up so that when my hospitals kick in, every citizen remains happy (I think all 8 lux + market + temple + cathedral/Sistine + Bach = 17 happy citizens on Monarch. Then add 10-20% luxuries... you get the point).

I don't necessarily avoid war with my 4 attack units, such as Samurai , but I do the majority of my fighting with horsemen. After that, the primary focus is building. Assuming the ancient wars went as planned, my civ is dominant. Invading and destroying an island civ isn't really much of a "war." It's simply a matter of loading 4-5 caravels with Samurai and crushing them. I prefer, however, at this stage in the game, to steal luxuries via building outpost cities. This is because I actually have no need for war anymore. Once I own my whole continent, plus maybe an island or two, I'm close to the domination limit. Accordingly, I don't want much more territory. Great Leaders are always nice, but again, if all has gone well, I'm WAY ahead at this point. I can build the rest of the wonders, no sweat.

Defending outposts on another continent on "Normal" sized maps really isn't so bad, particularly when you have Magellan's and total naval superiority.

More later... gotta run for now.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

To continue, and hopefully clarify, my prior post...

Essentially, once I reach my desired empire size (close to domination limit... roughly 120-130,000 sq. miles of territory on a normal/normal), I have only one reason to fight: luxuries. Great Leaders are unimportant at this stage in the game. I have achieved ultimate power, and am now into the "milking" stage.

With regard to reputation, I only care to the extent that it may drag me into a war I don't want or prevent me from trading for a luxury I want. I don't mind war, even under democracy, so long as I am prepared to wage it. I will often have ships stationed offshore of the other continent, loaded with troops, such that they can immediately land and fight if there is a declaration of war. But that takes some time to set up, and getting into a phony war before I'm ready has the potential to drag on long enough to cause war weariness.

Especially on a large map. I have a friend who plays Large/Large/Continents most of the time, and I've seen what happens when a civ on the other side of the world picks a fight. He sends his powerful army to fight, and it wins. It wins hands down, crushing the enemy, destroying their cities... but while this is happening, his democracy collapses into anarchy and he's forced into communism. Research grinds to a halt, workers work slowly and can't even keep up with the pollution... it's ugly as hell.

The problem is that it just takes forever to destroy even a small civ on a large map. By the time your forces arrive, fight, and win, your cities are in disorder. I've actually wondered whether it might be best to use Monarchy, but that's another story...

-Arrian

[Harovan]

That's why I try at all cost go get a 1-2 city hold at the other continent(s) as early as possible. They are my military bases for such invasion. That's the American way, Arrian, why don't you set up a Guantanamo bay for your forces?

[Arrian]

Sir Ralph,

That exactly what my "outpost cities" are!! I build them, rushbuy harbor, barracks, walls, temple, marketplace... and ferry over basically all spare troops. When the Germans attacked such a city in a recent game, they were faced with 5 defending musketmen, a cannon, and 8 or so Cavalry - and that was soon after I had founded the city. It now has maybe 10 infantry, 4 artillery, 10 Cavalry, and an army of 3 Cavalry in it, with another such city now on the opposite side of the continent with comparable numbers of troops (I haven't actually finished that game yet, but sssssoooon, my prrrecioussss).

As for my friend and his large/large games... well, he usually does have cities on other continents, but the shear size of the map results in long, slug-fest style wars which do terrible things to democracies.

-Arrian

[Harovan]

Ah, sorry, didn't read your previous post well enough (am still at work, that's why).

I am just having fun with large and huge maps. My old computer could not handle them, and I never played a "huge" game later than in the late industrial age. My new computer performs well so far. At standard maps, the military bases are optional, but at large and especially huge maps they are a must have. And even better, if they have a resource or a luxury. I once had an oil city at an isthmus, that was attacked by the Aztecs and Iroquois at once (mostly with cavalries). They didn't succeed, because I had a mechinf and a panzer corps in the city (a corps is a transport full). That's fun!

[Harovan]

As to the government for warfare: If you don't have the luxuries to wage a long war, you could try and switch to monarchy. Forget about communism, it cripples your good cities in favor of the crappy ones. Monarchy rules, you big cities support lots of free units, no war weariness, and the good (around P+FP) cities with factories etc. stay productive. The unit support is practically zero and all you make can go into research.

[Txurce]

Rpodos, you started this thread by spelling out your goals, which quite reasonably include fun. For me, fun is challenge, and the absence of boredom. On a standard map, the beginning always has plenty of both, but unfortunately is the game's make-or-break point for me. I think most players either pack it in quickly, or rise to the occasion... and are playing the game on a downslope by the time they approach the industrial age. With the challenge level so low, I start to get bored.

What to do about it? As Arrian points out, it's hard not to conquer your entire home continent on a standard map, if only because you all-but-conquer it to achieve critical mass. Then what? If I go for domination, the race against the clock isn't too bad, but a space race that was effectively decided 1000 years before it ends, playing with the very large civ that got you there, is a crashing worker-managing bore (as I'm finding out replaying my Egyptian domination game).

What I would like is to find a way to sustain competitive balance for much of the game. Rather than create a world of vassals, I want to create a world that has at least two civs who are permanent serious rivals. To accomplish this, I'm considering playing one of two ways. If I start with a bad position, my work is cut out for me. But with a good starting position, I'm considering limiting myself to 16 cities - the optimal pre-corruption number on a standard map. The challenge would be to out-research the AI while defending myself against civs that aren't smaller or too far behind technologically (if behind at all). A side benefit would be a lot less micro-managing of units.

I don't know if this is possible, by the way, and won't try until I get a few more wins on Emperor under my belt.

[Txurce]

Aeson mentioned initiating renegotiations every twenty or so turns, and this reminded me of a question I have about this general topic. The AI often contacts me to renegotiate (down) a luxury deal, or to let a MPP expire or... more rarely... to extend a peace treaty. However, the game never lets me know when any treaty is about to expire. My question is, does the AI always bring it up? Or is there something I can do to be more systematic and efficient about taking advantage of this part of the game?

[Arrian]

Well, you've pretty much gotta keep track of it yourself. The AI doesn't ALWAYS call you up to renegotiate trade deals. It only does that when it thinks it should get more. If it's getting a good deal, it won't say a thing.

One other thing to remember - this had me confused for a while: If you make a deal for hard cash or tech (i.e. wines in exchange for 100 gold, or a tech), the deal automatically runs out after 20 turns. You get the "we have lost our supply of wines" message, with no explanation. Maybe it was just me, but it took me some time to figure out that it was those particular types of deals which caused this. It would be better if the game told you "our wines for astronomy deal with XXX has expired."

I have long wished for a better F2 screen, complete with all active deals:

Zululand - 5gpt for wines, 7 turns left
Persia - 8gpt for wines, 11 turns left.
_____ - Music Theory for incense, 5 turns left.
Iroquois - 14 gpt for wines and incense, 9 turns left.

etc.

-Arrian

[rpodos]

Me too.

The only way of checking now is soooo painful.

R

[Txurce]

So in effect, you either write down the relevant information on paper, or check the diplomacy screen and try to decipher where something stands, right? I guess I can do this, but painful is right.

[Theseus]

Txurce,

Prior to now, I have usually reached that "make-or-break" point, which I've been calling overwhelming momentum, and quit, as I know I am going to win.

As I play out the interminable Roman game, I've realized that I actually do have some real competition, specifically France and Germany on the other major continent.

Although I've been giving a lot of support to the other civs over there, those two bad boys are looking strong.

Rather and go mangle them now, I am purposely going to wait, and keep them in the race. If it gets too close, part of the excitement will be mounting a punitive expedition (all MA Armies!!).

R, errr, T

[Txurce]

Theseus, I will probably finish my Egyptian space-race game, but in small time installments. You're right, it is just too boring.

How did you come to realize that France and Germany were worth taking seriously... or seriously enough to let them become more competitive?