Make the AI into Alexander

[notyoueither]

Hmmm. Got this idea over the last number of days. What simple things does the AI not do that successful humans are doing?

What things could Soren incorporate into a *Developer's Cut* of the AI to teach Aeson, KruX and others some humility. Not me, nope. I'm very humble.

This is mostly for warfare, but some of the Builders might have a tip or two also.

Perhaps I'm being very unhumble in thinking that we could suggest anything to Soren, but maybe the perspectives of the players could uncover some things he hadn't thought of yet. So here goes.

[notyoueither]

The Bum Rush

Bulla, Bulla!

The situation is tense. The fate of empires hangs in the balance. If you sit back and wait for your enemy to bring it to you you are going to lose. As things stand, if you put everything you've got into one massive effort to defeat the Hun you just might find victory.

I (Roman's) invade a large island occupied soley by the Persians. Xerxes dusted the Indians and the Zulu long ago and has had a chance to develop the entire mini continent. He has well over 100 Mech Inf, about 30 Tanks, 15 or so Bombers and other assorted units. Of course he has Rails.

The Granda Marina has blown the goats out of a Persian coastal city (4 CVs and 8 BBs with 8 DDs will do that). 16 Marines are poised to assault the city. 4 are lost in overcoming the defenders (about 4 MechInf, 1 Inf). The Transports sail in and disembark. This lands 8 Artillery, 8 MechInf and 16 Tanks along with 12 Marines in the newly Roman city. All Fortify (except the expended Marines) to withstand the hurricane which is sure to follow. The Roman AirForce massively reinforces the invasion area.

The hurricane ensues. Only, instead of an all-out assault to immediately push me back into the sea, about 30 MechInf surround the city and begin pillaging.

I occupy my next turn by popping off some of the adventuresome Persian MechInf, and RushBuy an Airport. All Jet Fighters set to AirSuperiority.

On Xerxes turn, the hurricane commences. But it is only a brisk gale. Our Jets shoot down a few Persian Bombers. About 8 Persian Tanks expend themselves probing against the fortified MechInf.

On our turn, we Airlift in reinforcements, and probe out of the city.

On Xerxes's next turn the Persians destroy our small probe force and again attack our positions at the city. He commits enough to do damage, but holds back forces still. Our AirForce shoots the h*ll out of the Persian Bombers.

Our next turn, more probe out. RushBuy the AirPort again.

And so it goes. It took me much too long to get to the next Persian city. Interestingly, I underestimated the AI, and escalated my forces much too slowly. But finally, after shifting massive Tank and MechInf forces in, the forces of Rome are making progress.

But, the point is that Xerxes should have nailed the entire invasion force right there on turn 1. 30 Tanks and 50 MechInf should have been more than enough to annihiliate 16Tanks, 8 MechInf and 12 Marines. No?

I understand why it is so now. The game must be fun for even the casual gamer. Making invasions nearly impossible would not be fun for many people. But the fact is the enemy was barging in the gate, and the defenders had more than enough to destroy them. In fact the situation cried out for a Bum Rush. Oh well.

[asleepathewheel]

The AI bombards fairly well using its navy and bombers, but needs to use artillary rather than just keeping it around for defense, and the odd unit every one in a while.

AI needs to upgrade better. in my current game, I am in a joint operation w/ most of the world against the aztecs, I'm attacking w/ tanks (which noone else has yet) but the ai is assisting w/ immortals, archers, longbowmen, etc. The AI should have upgrading in its operational hierarchy, or at least place a higher priorty on it.

Does the AI use spies very frequently? I think I have only caught one or two trying to infiltrate, of course, I don't try to ferret them out, so my empire may be riddled with them.

There you go, some of the most obvious holes in the AI's warmaking ability.

[notyoueither]

Examples

BTW. Example situations should include setting information so that everyone can make sense of how the situation came about.

The situation of the Bum Rush is on Emperor, Large Map, Continents. 12civs. WarmClimate. Increased TechCost. 8 Turn MinimumResearchTime.

[asleepathewheel]

Re: Examples

Originally posted by notyoueither
BTW. Example situations should include setting information so that everyone can make sense of how the situation came about.

The situation of the Bum Rush is on Emperor, Large Map, Continents. 12civs. WarmClimate. Increased TechCost. 8 Turn MinimumResearchTime.

Ah, then sorry about the previous post. I was speaking in more general terms, game long tactics, not specific situations.

Does the AI change tactics the higher the level? I have heard that level increases only gives benefits to the AI, doesn't teach new tricks, right?

What I was referring to occured while playing on monarch.

[notyoueither]

No aatw. Not you in particular. Remember, I gave my own specs for a lengthy example.

I think the AI should get some new tricks as the level goes up. That's exactly what I'm suggesting. I would not want Soren to overwhelm unsuspecting people at normal levels with wicked tactics. I think a *This is Impossible, I'm Serious* level would add a lot to the appreciation of the game. Just think when you beat it. If... It would also be ideal for scenarios in some circumstances.

BTW. Everyone. Keep in mind that the idea, or the core of it must be simple. Even in the unlikely event that what you or I say here finds fertile soil in the final release of the game, there is no way that the AI is going to get torn apart and rebuilt at this point.

Simple concept. Simple conditions. Just maybe our ideas could stand a chance. At the very least it would be easy to talk about.

[Inverse Icarus]

it does get some new tricks as the difficulty level goes up.

it starts with 4 workers instead of 1

[Zachriel]

The AI could learn the proper use of bombard.

[notyoueither]

Artillery is near impossible for the AI to get good at.

OK. They put 16 Artillery into a stack and blow the snot out of one of your stacks. What do the rest of your forces do when it's your turn? They hunt down the Artillery and capture it. How many defensive units do they put with the guns? 4? 8? 16? How many do they have?

I don't think that it could never be done. I just think it is one of the more difficult items on the list.

Also, how much computational horsepower is required for that? Of course the same thing can be said about the whole notion of a superior AI as being possible for Civ3. Maybe the horses just aren't on enough desks to make it feasable at this time. That's one more reason why anything to be hoped for should be simple.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Artillery is near impossible for the AI to get good at.

OK. They put 16 Artillery into a stack and blow the snot out of one of your stacks. What do the rest of your forces do when it's your turn? They hunt down the Artillery and capture it. How many defensive units do they put with the guns? 4? 8? 16? How many do they have?

I don't think that it could never be done. I just think it is one of the more difficult items on the list.

I'm sure its hard, but believe it is doable. I'm not expecting it. Artillery is the HI cheat. The AI can rarely get any traction on the attack as long as I have sufficient bombard.

Perhaps the AI could just get good at defensive bombard. A couple dozen artillery in a crucial city can certainly slow down most attacks.

[notyoueither]

You've got a reasonable point there. Maybe the AI should stack up the defensive units and Artillery in it's capitol and FP.

That would be simple to accomplish, I think. Make total destruction harder too.

[rpodos]

nye, if I follow your thought processes, you are trying to help Soren develop a kick-ass military AI. Kudos, I agree.

The examples you've used thus far are with late-game military... not my forte (yet). But I'll try to contribute...

First off, let me say that I agree with an implicit premise of yours: on Monarch and higher, the AI should be able to demolish the human player, unless the human uses every bit of wit, wisdom, strategy and tactics available. I love the idea of a "Soren's Revenge on the Whiners" level.

Without a formal study, here are some of the aspects of that advanced military AI that I think need to be addressed:

* Concentrated / overwhelming force: No more dribs and drabs, please. If the AI is going to come after me, don't send in forces in groups of 2 or 4, in series. The AI should choose an objective, and stack at least 10 offensive units, use an appropriate approach (hills / mountains), and open a can of kick-ass on me.

* The algorithm for combat avoidance is too simplistic... don't let a human strike force into the heart of the AI empire.

* Don't start GWs in key military production cities.

* Don't send Settlers to the front.

* Use arty. Protect it.

* More barracks when faced with a warfare-oriented game. My elite / vet Immortals get bored cutting up regulars.

* More forts on key strategic positions.

* Understand and avoid "killzones." This is almost an exploit for me, although there is historical precedent.

* Firaxis needs to develop a black-white algorithm; there are certain situations when TOTAL military commitment is called for... throw the pots and pans, for Christ's sake!

* Increase aggression for all AI civs, period.

I don't think the military AI needs that much work; I've had my share of multiple stacks of 4 Legions showing up in force. But some tweaking would help.

R

[notyoueither]

You've got it right rpodos. I'm attempting a discussion that MIGHT be beneficial to Soren, if he sees it. At the very least, I'm hopeful that we can learn a bit from each other and thrash his AI even better than before. Heh heh.

I'm not going to gear my observations to any one era. The Bum Rush applies equally to ancient land campaigns as to modern invasions. The modern invasion just high-lights the absolute lack of down-side for the AI to do it, that's all.

Dribs and drabs, yes. Heh. I have some ideas on that. Waiting to formulate them though.

Almost everything you've said would be good for the Insane Difficulty level (and for many or all lower too). Many of them might be quite simple to implement. The Settlers into the cauldron especially. Why do they do that? Pretty simple? No Settlers go within 6 tiles of an enemy civ's units.

[asleepathewheel]

Whats ironic about the settler carnage is that it is almost exactly what many players do, raze and build own city. unfortunately the AI does this when on the defensive, after its own city is razed, it tries to repopulate the area, leading to quick death. If it could be trained to only do this offensively, like after it has secured a couple of squares around the razed city and then defend it, it would be much more effective and entertaining to play against.

[Alex]

Another thing that would help: when the AI is on the offensive, it should not only bring a powerful attack force to try and conquer your most vulnerable spot, but also create a diversion, unloading some units somewhere else on your empire. If we can do that, I think it would not be difficult for the AI to do it.

Of course, the AI would have to get a more comprehensive knowledge of the situation and circunstances involving the attack. Is the other civ's culture level higher? Do they have railroads? That is the real trick.