Why so dumb?

[Jim0322]

I have to admit that Civ3 seems much more difficult than Civ1 but it has some great features. In any case, I seem to take a beating quite frequently.

In the game I played until 2050, nobody, including myself , had even started a spaceship or had all the technology to do so. I barely made it into the final technology age. I was ranked 3rd of 12 I think, almost second but the Greeks took one of my cities in the last year.

Am I playing with too many civs? I just reduced it to 7 but have not played far enough yet. Is it possible to win without destroying other civs but just taking a few cities in retribution? I always got into future techs in Civ1 but no chance yet in Civ3.

I can't imagine what it is like to play on the upper half of the difficulty levels....

Jim

[notyoueither]

Actually, tech progresses faster from Monarch up. This is due to bonuses given to the AI civs. When you hear people telling you to set science to 0 and buy off the AI civs, they are most likely playing Deity or Emperor.

Guess what? Many of them are complaining that the tech comes too quickly and they are finished a game in the 13th or 14th centuries. Go figure.

Salve

[pchang]

War

Actually, by going on a war rampage and just annihilating everyone else, I am able to finish before 0AD. I don't really have the patience to finish builder style spaceship victories. Even with a launch in the 1500's, there's a lot of mouse clicking required to go from 150BC to 1510AD.

[rpodos]

Read Vel's Strategy thread for a lot of great tips. I think you'll find the game is most balanced on Monarch.

R

[player1]

In Civ1 & Civ2 there was different nuber of turns per diffculty level.
More on lower difficulty.

But not in Civ3.

So,
that way it's a little bit difficult to get spaceship on Chifertain, while on Empeor or Diety its in 1500AC.

This needs to be changed by Firaxis team (although it would need a lot of testing).

[Ethelred]

I kept seeing complaints like this on the Yahoo Civ three discussion group. Considering that I lost my first game, the tuturial in 2050 with no one close to a lauch at first I might of aggeed that is too hard. However I was at war in that game for over 2000 years straight with absolutely every other civ in the game. Lost on score.

Later I had no trouble at all on higher levels in launching before 2000. Never had a game again that lasted till 2000. So I decided to slum a bit and see if it really was that hard to develop on chieftan.

Its not. Although I didn't launch it was because I won by domination unexpectedly while I was building SS components. I would have launced before 1780 if the game had continued. So the problem people are having is strategy.

Growing fast is important on low levels as the AI is so crippled on chieftain they won't be able to help with research. Its possible to get the tech rate down to a new tech every four to six turns.

Keys things are

Build settlers fast. If you have a food bonus in just one square you will be able to create a new settler every ten turns in you capital. Just road a few squares, mine a couple squares that have a shield bonus and if there is food bonus you may want to irrigate that one square if it can be done quickly. Then send that worker on to the next city city.

On chieftain you should be able to have three or four cities before any of the AI civs have a second city.

Road all worked tiles. Don't bother improving tiles you don't have the population to work.

Rail road everything when you get steampower. Its ugly but I even rail the mountain tiles so I can instantly move units there for defense when needed.

Try to optimize your use of rivers. Every tile worked adjacent to river produces an extra coin. It pays to position your cities to maximize the use of rivers.

Marketplace, Library, Bank, University and then finally Research Center are the most important imprvements for science. Money is the key to tech on all levels of play. The Library won't work without money.

If you are not industrious you will want one worker per city and maybe a few at larger workers especially for cities that have a lot of hills and the food to work them. Industrious civs can get away with less. Maybe two workers for every three or four cities if you don't have to deal with a lot of jungle.

Set your science as high as you can without running a deficit. Even run a deficit if you have the cash. When the time for tech is down to one turn reset the science as low as you can while staying at one turn. This can save a lot of cash over time.

Aim your science for the Republic. You will need the cash on the low levels as much as you do on high levels. On high levels you can use it to buy tech but on the low levels you should always be in the tech lead especially after you go Republic.

If your not religious just stay as a Republic. Don't bother changing. Its not worth the turns in anarchy. Religous civs can change to democracy and get some use out of it.

Build the Forbidden Palace as soon as you can. Even if its not in the ideal position it will help corruption. To get it in the best position you may want to build a courthouse in the target city. Rush the courthouse by cutting down forrests if you have them there.

Of course if you manage to get a Great Leader you can put the Forbidden Palace anywhere you want.

You won't get any use out of the Great Library on low levels. You should be the tech leader even with the 1.17f patch. I was a full era ahead of the AI civs by the end of the Middle age and they were only that close because I was trading very old tech to them for luxuries.

Build a few pirates if the AI is isolated. Then you can keep them isolated by sinking their gallies without diplomatic repurcussions.

Take out your neighbors early. They won't be able to build anywhere near as fast as you if you built those early settlers fast enough.

After a bit you can decide if you want to sit back and be a builder or a maddog conqueror.

Then you most likely won't want to play on chieftan again. And if you do it too long you will develop bad habits that will hurt you on the higher levels. Like not trading tech and bullying the AI. The AI will bully you instead on the higher levels. You will die if you don't trade. But on chieftain a decent start is all that is needed to be School Bully.

Just don't get into an interminable war like I did in my first game. Untill you develop a bit its hard to fight every single other civ in the game. Constant warfare is a sure recipe for tech stagnation.

Oh yes, do read those strategy threads that Vel started. They helped me learn how to be the Bully instead of running into to the 2050 end of game limit.

[Jim0322]

Thanks for all the tips. I played a while on chieftain and found it is way too easy. The next level up is quite a challenge but hopefuly with some experience and good strategy it will become easy.

[Zardos]

Originally posted by Ethelred
Set your science as high as you can without running a deficit. Even run a deficit if you have the cash. When the time for tech is down to one turn reset the science as low as you can while staying at one turn. This can save a lot of cash over time.

Actually, I find that at the Monarch level, it is best that you put your research at the absolute minimum possible while still researching something. This allows you to get a lot of gold to buy the techs from the AI -- but be sure to make contact with as many civs as possible and only buy techs if you are one of the last civs to get it (unless you need it desparately) because the value of the tech drops in direct correlation with the number of civs that you know that have this tech. This will make your money last longer. Only once you are in the early to mid industrial age, do you want to start getting a tech advantage (again, this is at the Monarch level). Switch to Democracy, crank up the research, and away you go. I still find, however, that there are enivitably one or two civs that can keep pace with me technologically throughout the entire game.

Originally posted by Ethelred
Aim your science for the Republic. You will need the cash on the low levels as much as you do on high levels. On high levels you can use it to buy tech but on the low levels you should always be in the tech lead especially after you go Republic.

I agree with Ethelred's assessment of being able to buy the techs and being in the tech lead at the lower levels, but at the higher levels, I tend to go for Monarchy. This tech path is rarely traversed by the AI, and if I can trade these techs for other, more commonly acquired techs, then I will do so. Furthermore, I prefer Monarchy for a good long time -- even though I'm a builder by nature, I find that the AI often forces me in to war.

Originally posted by Ethelred
You won't get any use out of the Great Library on low levels. You should be the tech leader even with the 1.17f patch. I was a full era ahead of the AI civs by the end of the Middle age and they were only that close because I was trading very old tech to them for luxuries.

I also find that I don't get much out of the Great Library at the Monarch level either. If I happen to get it, I might get a few techs out of it, but given the speed at which Education is researched compared to the relatively slow speed at which the Great Library is built, I would rather save my shields and go for the Sistine Chapel (the most important Great Wonder, in my opinion).

Originally posted by Ethelred
Build a few pirates if the AI is isolated. Then you can keep them isolated by sinking their gallies without diplomatic repurcussions.

I never do this, but I should -- great idea!

Originally posted by Ethelred
Take out your neighbors early. They won't be able to build anywhere near as fast as you if you built those early settlers fast enough.

After a bit you can decide if you want to sit back and be a builder or a maddog conqueror.

Once an AI has declared war on me, I bolster my defenses and wait for the attack. Usually, that AI will throw everything it has against you. If the war is going against you, get an ally. If it is going for you, get an ally and mount a counter attack. Once you take two or three of the AI's cities, it is at a huge disadvantage for the rest of the game.

Originally posted by Ethelred
Then you most likely won't want to play on chieftan again. And if you do it too long you will develop bad habits that will hurt you on the higher levels. Like not trading tech and bullying the AI. The AI will bully you instead on the higher levels. You will die if you don't trade. But on chieftain a decent start is all that is needed to be School Bully.

Couldn't agree more!


Zardos

[Arrian]

I have to disagree about the Great Library. I play on Monarch, and I find the GL to be very, very useful. My normal "builder" tech research goes Alphabet, Writing, Literature. I use the pyramids as a shield holder (I play as Egypt a lot, but otherwise I'll buy masonry). After getting Literature, I go for math->currency. I will buy the wheel, and sometimes will research or buy ironworking. The GL will get me everything else besides currency and republic, which I research myself. Then I'm in the middle ages.

I can see that on Emperor and Diety it would clearly be best to simply use 1 scientist w/a 0% science rate, while buying tech from the AI. But on Monarch, after the GL catches me up, I can lead the rest of the way.

On the lower levels, the GL may not get you any tech because you are already leading. But if you want to make some serious money, just shut off your science, rake in cash (which you can use to rushbuild things), and wait for the GL to provide your tech for you. Then, once your civ is all set up, crank up the research and leave the AI in the dust.

-Arrian

[Ethelred]

Actually, I find that at the Monarch level, it is best that you put your research at the absolute minimum possible while still researching something.

On Monarch yes. At the beginning anyway. This was for low levels. On low levels the AI will be ones dependent on trade. On Chiefain they are just plain hopeless and that was I was aiming at. I find that I can now get a tech lead on Monarch before I reach the Industrial Age. Thats why I am now trying my builder-opportunist style on Emperor. Lost the first one. I think I will have to go to war to win my present game.

Building up my cavalry now. The Greeks are going to pay for extorting me in the Ancient Era.

If you are really ripping through the tech and have a tech lead with The Republic DON'T switch to Democracy unless you are a religous civ. The advantages won't make up for the turns lost to anarchy. I do hate losing the 50% worker speed but the I decided that was better than four to eight turns of anarchy.

As for Monarchy I have found that usefull now that I have finally tried religous civ. Its a balancing act deciding when to switch to Republic. I do think Republic can be a better choice than Monarchy but I find that I need colliseums or better yet cathedrals before the switch unless I can latch on three or four luxuries.

Monarchy really helps with unhappiness and building up troops but it also hurts commerce.

I completely agree with you about the Great Library but a lot people find it usefull. I think the key with getting good use of the GL is to beline for Military Tradition while getting everything else through the Library. Either that or just set science to zero. I don't like conceding the tech like that though.

The Sistine Chappel is GREAT. I started on the Great Library and switched to the Sistine Chappel in my latest game. I had my capital tied up for fourty maybe fifty turns with the population stuck on six but that Wonder is worth it. Thats the only wonder I have so far in this game. I just have to give up on most of them on Emperor. I think the next I get will be Hoover Dam.

ZardoS?

Whats with the 'S'. WiZARD of OZ=ZARDOZ

Got it on laser disc.

[Zardos]

Zardos = Something Different

Great Ideas from both you and Arrian.

In my next game, I'm gonna try beelining for Lit instead of taking the Monarchy route...one question...

What do you set your Science rate at to get to Lit on Monarchy? High or wait for the AI to discover it and just pre-build the GL with the Pyramids?

Zardos (z)

[Ethelred]

On Monarch level I can go either way. Science high to do it myself or horde money and trade.

If your stuck by yourself on an island you have to change everything. Then I beline for mapmaking and as soon as its feesible I start the pyramids with the intention of switching to the Great Lighthouse a must have if your stuck by yourself. Science cranked as high I can go. I send out the first galley in those circumstances even before I have a harbor. The Lighthouse will effect all your ships including those allready built. When trapped a ship or three is vital.

The Great Lighthouse has the advantage of making your maps more valuable. Also you can dodge the barbarian ships if you want. They won't attack you if you are on a sea tile instead of coast. This is especially usefull for ships that are a long away from home.

In the unpatched version of Civ III the Great Lighthouse was much stronger. Galleys could travel safely accross ocean. Definitly a bug and it was squashed.

On Monarch its possible to get a fair number of the Great Wonders when you get the hang of it. Still hardly any of the Ancient Wonders are worth building. Pyramids are nice but not a great need especially on smaller land masses. Its one of those Wonders that usefullness varies with the geography and map size.

On Regent you might as well go for most of the Wonders. My first and so far only Regent game I managed to get all but two or three wonders. I know I skipped Hanging Gardens. That may have been the only one.

I then proceeded to lose my first several Monarch games in a row. Had to learn to pay off the bullies.

[Brinoch]

Zardos, I know that Arrian tends to leave his science at about 50%. I cut it to 20%, or whatever the minimum is to keep science going at the beginning. This'll get you your first tech at 40 turns. I generally increase science after this whenever I'll get an appreciable benefit from the 50/60%.

Beelining for the Great Library works well on both Regent and Monarch. Even though its usefulness is limited by time, it can get you 10 to 12 techs for free and the culture is great. When I play builder, I find that this is the first key to a successful game.

On the other hand, when warmongering I just attack-attack-attack. Strangely enough, I was building the GL during a warmongering game as the Germans recently and lost out to the Russians and ended up building the Hanging Gardens instead. (There just wasn't anything to do about it.) This has been a great boon for me--with my luxuries I've gotten Berlin to a size 12 very early and quickly. This extra production got me Sistine, Leonardo's (Missed Copernicus because I'm a warmonger and was busy beating up the Babylonians rather than research Astronomy), and Adam Smith. Plus, I should be getting Newton soon.