Getting the most out of your Elites

[dac]

I only have annecdotal evidence to offer, but the AI does seem to target Elite units, especially injured ones. I try and retreat out my injured units either back to a safe city, or just a safe distance away. In 1.17f, that's a lot harder to do now, as instead of the AI just mindlessly marching off to sack the weakest city in my empire (where ever that might be), the offensive units seem to:
1) Target injured units
2) Target Elite units

I haven't seen enough war on 1.17 to know if there are any other targeting priorities.

One observation, the Persians declared war on my Germans, and I cannot figure out why. They didn't owe me any money, and we were on pretty good terms. The only thing I can think of was that it directly attacked the two cities I'd built specifically to culture flip a city of his that had access to iron, which I needed. Scary, if it figured that tactic out bad enough to want to eliminate those cities.

[Arrian]

dac,

I have noticed that if I build a city in close to the AI's city in order to either try to flip theirs or to steal a resource away from them by expanding my borders, they will attack me. This, I believe, is an undocumented tweak to the AI (good job, Soren). In 1.16, this would typically not happen.

-Arrian

[dac]

I program for a living, and although I don't have any experience with AI programming, it seems to me that unless it's just making a simple distance check, that's a pretty sweet piece of coding. Also means I'm going to have to work harder at this game, always a good thing.

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by Arrian
Hmm... well, maybe you guys are right. Soren? Dan? Anybody, care to comment?

-Arrian

- all veteran units have equal probability of upgrading to elite.

and

- there is no GL creation bonus for militaristic civs.

[Arrian]

Thanks for clearing those questions up, Soren.

How about the AI's apparent reaction to attempted culture bombing? Or am I just imagining things?

-Arrian

[rpodos]

Arrian, I am glad you have found the joys of warmongering. It's not all blood and guts though, as you found. Probably the most enjoyable part, for me at least, is that I get to build all of the stuff I want, and thus create a greaaat civ.

As for the upgrading issue, I think what we've left out so far is relative unit strength. I actually mean two different things by that:

1. What is the strength benefit of the upgrade? Clearly, warrior to swordman or equal UU, archer to longbowmen, horseman to knight or equal UU, and spearman to musketman are pretty compelling. So I'll usually do those right away. But I often leave my elite knights or equal UU alone for a while.

2. Also, what is the general strength of your units versus the civs with whom you are at war? If I've achieved a tech lead, or am at least at parity, I may delay upgrading (especially for defenders in strong positions). In fact, I'll usually use the elite but less powerful unit at least one more time on a weak defender, and THEN upgrade to instantly heal. BTW, this sentiment also applies to the regular vs. vet vs. elite issue, in that I will use the AI's dramatically weaker defenders as training fodder to upgrade any straggling regulars.

Lastly and anecdotally, the AI DEFINITELY goes after weak units. I think it is just part of the algorithm deciding where to attack, and where there is the highest likelihood to win battle. The opposite, for instance, is a stack of 2-3 four-infantry armies (fortified on a mountain in a fortress!!!). The AI never (?) attacks then.

R

ps: Soren, thanks for responding about militaristic and GL creation. This devalues militaristic for me quite a lot, since I fight so much that getting elites is not a problem. Too bad, I love the samurai animation!

[ducki]

I recently started a "Can I Generate Five Leaders" game, so I thought I'd resurrect this thread in lieu of starting a new one.

I think I've figured out the single most important factor in generating Great Leaders.

Luxuries.

Yes, all the other stuff is important.
Selectively fighting with Elites, Fighting a lot with Elites, Relative Strength, and plenty of other concepts discussed here and on the Wonder Guide thread, as well as other places.

But in my game - Japan, Regent, Pangea, Large, 10 Civs, Sedentary Barbs - I've been at war from the time I had 6 horsemen and 3 swordsmen until Gunpowder, and you just can't do that with cranky civilians.

Well, you can, but it gets expensive.
I've gotten lucky. I've got 5 or 6 luxuries.
And marketplaces.

I got one Leader with a Horseman in the Late Ancient after one short war with China and in the middle of a Looooooooooong war with Egypt.
Created an Army, added the Elite* Horseman, wandered around with a Vet Sword and Elite Horseman looking for easy prey. (Workers don't count as a victory, btw). Killed an Archer and built the Epic.

Then, in 840AD, a Samurai became a Leader and I stole Sistine away from Egypt, having built SunTzu's normally. I picked Sistine over Leo's because a)I love getting 6 contents from every Cathedral and b)I hate when the AI gets 6 contents from every Cathedral.

In 900AD, another Samurai became a Leader while taking the Mongol capitol.

All this time, constant wars with China, Egypt, India, Mongolia from the BCs to nearly 1000AD, I've had a lot of WLT*D time. In fact, most of it.

Without all those luxuries, I'd either be too poor to have upgraded to Samurai and would have had to sue for peace, or I'd be having serious disorder problems.


So, I propose that Content and Happy citizens, and therefore Luxuries, are the single most important factor in generating Leaders, simply because in a Republic, it's so difficult to wage war with cranky peaceniks.

[DaveMcW]

Militaristic beats Luxuries

[Theseus]

Yup, happiness is the Key Enabler for many things...

Civ3: The Happiness Game

[ducki]

930AD and I'm up to 4 leaders.

Even when I'm not Militaristic, I have almost this many Elites running around, but with all these luxuries, I'm not seeing any Peaceniks.

Since I lost my first Army, I used #3 for another one, since there are no wonders to build and my empire is rather screwy, so there's no "good" place for a FP.

With #4, I just don't know what to do... I can either wait until I take a couple more cities, giving me a better spot for placement, or I can hold him, wasting all my upcoming Elite battles, or I can make another Army.

/sigh

At any rate, if you want Leaders, it seems you have to go "looking for them", not merely "maximize your Elites".

Sure, maximizing your Elites increases your chances, but if you really want leaders, you have to be willing to fight wars, long ones, or many of them. You need lots of Elite victories (and a few Elite deaths) to appease the Leader God whose name is RNG.

I'm not up to my designated 5 yet, and I may have to take a break until Cavalry, now that everyone has Gunpowder, or find those that don't have Saltpeter.


Speaking of "Getting the most out of your Elites" - I've been joining my Generated a Leader Elites into my Army.
Logic being, they're Samurai, so even when I can't use them as offense, they defend as well as Muskets, 10 hitpoints(soon to be 15) on a 4 attack is a nice nutcracker, and ...

I like the graphic.
The flagbearer, the General giving orders...
It just looks so neat.


Anyway!!!
What do you guys do with your "Leadered Elites" - Put them in Armies? Upgrade ASAP? Use them as cannon fodder?

[DaveMcW]

If my Elite* unit lives long enough it is the first to be upgraded. But I always put them on the front lines, attacking right before conscripts/regulars. Amazingly enough they sometimes do survive to be upgraded.

[vmxa1]

Upgrade them if you can or put them in an Army, those are good choices. Yes if you want lots of leaders you need to be at war for long periods and wiht more than one civ. Do not sit on leaders if you want more of them. You can always make an army and not fill it up until you are ready.

[ducki]

There are only two times when I will "hold" a leader.

1 - if I'm very close to a new tech with a Wonder I really, really, really want.

2 - if, by holding him, I can grab two wonders on the same turn, thus seriously shafting all the AIs that thought they had a "fallback". I love making them waste 400-600 shields.

[ducki]

Oh, duh. The reason I responded was, I can switch from my Mil.Trad. beeline and get Music Theory in 9 turns and steal Bach's (or probably trade for Music sooner), which is why I considered waiting for Music.

[Arrian]

ducki,

I'm glad to see you are having some leader-generation success.

I didn't get to play friday night (gf) and then when I did get going, I didn't really have a typical game, despite playing China. I think I've generated 2 leaders, and I'm in the industrial age. #1 was used for a palace move (more than worth it... at this point, it was game over), and #2 made a 3-Cavalry army. I would have liked a 3rd to hold for Hoover, but whatever.

You are absolutely right about the power of luxuries. That's why I target them so aggressively. They help you, hurt the AI, and allow you to continue fighting when you're a republic or demo.

-Arrian