Rating Special Units

[petey]

Man-O-War Rocks!!!

Man-O-War is the best UU in the game. None of the others even come close.

Of course, I have nothing to back this up with, I just felt that someone needs to stick up for the poor Limeys because their UU and starting traits are so weak.

Then again, maybe I'll just get my Mounted Warriors (A++) and wipe the buggers out

[Bluesabre]

Re: Man-O-War Rocks!!!

Originally posted by petey
Man-O-War is the best UU in the game. None of the others even come close.

Man-O-War sux!!!
panzer:best industrial age UU, samurai:good middle age UU

[Rotten999]

When I hear "Man-O-War" I still think of race horses and squids, and this game has done little to change that.

I like the idea of a UU in each era. A certain amount of creative license would be needed to, say, give Zululand a modern unit and so on. As the game is now, Civs tend to dominate in the eras they historically controlled, which I think is also a good thing. Maybe the new added units would just have different graphics and the same stats.

I like the point about "I got killed before I got my Panzers!" If you picked an ancient UU civ and draw a hostile neighbor you look like a genius, but it's all chance. And the reason for "resets" as well, I suppose.

[Gray Eminence]

Jaguar Warrior

Not all it's cracked up to be, especially with the 1.17 patch. All mobile units are no longer the powerhouses they used to be. My last game as Aztec I lost oodles and oodles of these stupid things, very few retreats---I'd estimate maybe 25% of the time my (vet and elite) JWs would retreat.
Add this to it's pathetic performance and early obsolesce, and I'd have to give it a below average grade. I couldn't even take out BARBARIANS regularly with it! Mind you, I play Deity with raging hordes, so you face a lot of mounted barbs, but even on offense elite Jags lost to barbs often enough to be annoying (and in one case disastrous) especially in rough terrain.

With the retreat option significantly downgraded, JWs are really nothing more than fast warriors. An Industrious civ can just crank out a couple workers and achieve most of the effects of a JW just by building roads and using normal warriors.

The best thing that can be said for them is they make a very early rush attractive and likely to be successful. That can be crucial on Deity, depending on the map. Elite and vet JWs will take out Spearmen often enough to allow you to take cities, and you can build LOTS of them. You kinda waste your GA with them, but if you plan it right your cities can easily build one JW a turn during a GA, and with barracks so cheap due to your Militaristic trait, it should only take two turns to get the barracks up.

One thing I was hoping for, and didn't receive though one should expect it to happen otherwise, are lots of early leaders. All those elite Jags, and the number of times you have to attack to get a victory should yield more leaders than any other civilization in the early game. That means free Pyramids, palace jump, Oracle--whatever you need.
C-

Impi
Much better than the JW, the tech necessary will likely be uncovered fairly soon by your scouts from a goody hut, so that's a very minor penalty in most games. They are the perfect complement to a Horsemen attack, and the most effective pillager overall. Since they are primarily a defensive unit, you don't necessarily have to waste your Golden Age. Best bet is to trip as many goody huts as you can and see if you can get either one tech away from either Monarchy or Republic. Then build up and attack with Horsemen supported by Impis when your government change takes effect. With about 6 cities your GA will come at a perfect time to establish early game dominance and none of it will be wasted on Despotism.
B-

Bowman
Not a bad unit at all, but unfortunately not all that useful either. If you get Bronze Working right away, you can use it to quickly build up a respectable offense without sacrificing defense and terrorize a close neighbor. Unfortunately, it's slow and by the time you take a pop center or two they will have multiple Spearmen defending and you'll face painful casualties. Also, unlike the other units of the period, it doesn't give you anything you couldn't get through shrewd building choices. Two Bowmen cost the same as an Archer and a Spearmen, and they aren't fast or anything. You'll have someone more success on the early offensive with Bowman than the Archers/Spearmen combo, but nothing drastic like carving apart Spearmen with (especially) Immortals and Legions/Mounted Warriors.
C

Hoplite

A good solid unit, it gives you nearly unbreakable defense for the initial expansion period. I wouldn't say they are as powerful as the initial poster because they are only defensive units. Also, the Legions of Rome and the Immortals of Persia are nearby, making the Hoplites much more vulnerable when those powers get the required techs.
B

Mounted Warrior

Vies with the Legion and Immortal as the best overall UU. It comes early enough and is useful for a goodly chunk of the game. Before the 1.17 patch, probably the best one out there, even still it's a contender. I rate it less because it doesn't give a nearly unbreakable ancient-era defense like the Legions, and doesn't consume spearmen quite as confidently as Immortals. In many circumstance and maps, it's still going to be the best one around as it takes half the time to reach the objective and occasionally runs away when wounded.
A-

Legionary

My personal favorite, it is not only a great attacker before Feudalism; it's the best defender in the ancient world too! Better than Hoplites because it can attack when necessary defending a city, very effectively too. The Golden Age comes at a perfect time, and the Legion is still useful when Gunpowder comes around. Once Chivalry is discovered it's no longer one of the best units, but it's decent attack and defense values make it still worthwhile to have around. The only true drawback is it's not upgradable, a pity, but even in the age of Cavalry they are nice to have around as secondary defenders/martial law enforcers and to chew up wounded cav.

An effective strategy is to build up about ten Warriors with your first few cities and send them out to explore the world. Some will die, no doubt, but many will survive to become elites. When they reach elite status, send them home to garrison, and send out the garrison (likely a regular) to try his luck in the world tripping goody huts and scrubbing the barbarian filth from your territory. With any luck you'll end up with nearly a half-dozen elite Warriors. When Iron Working comes around, voila! You have about half a dozen elite Legions! Go forth and spank, Vae victis!

A

Immortal
Another of the finest units, I prefer the Legion (I don’t call them Legionaries) because they are less vulnerable to enemy Horsemen, but even still it's about the best around. Immortals eat through Spearmen even better than the Legions of Rome do. Make a beeline for Iron Working and build up about ten of these little lovelies and you can cripple your unfortunate neighbors until Chivalry comes around, and they are still useful then, too.

A

War Chariot
These can be useful, but the terrain restrictions can be very annoying on certain maps. Especially when you have to root out the barbarian camps, which are often in the mountains. Cheaper than Horsemen, and almost as good, you can be a terror in the early days if you can get the wheel quickly enough and have an early supply of horses. They're useful, because of their cheaper price, until Chivalry comes around too.
Use your industrious workers to build a decent road network and they are even more effective.
B-

Now we move out of the ancient world into the medieval units. I grade these as slightly less useful, because they are of no use in the critical ancient wars that are usually necessary on Deity. Their window of usefulness is smaller as well, most of them being less relevant by the time cavalry comes around, while you'll still get some use out of Legions, Immortals and even Mounted Warriors (due to the much lesser cost and ability to break Pikemen and finish off Musketmen) until nearly then too. It doesn't take that long to get from Chivalry to Nationalism in my experience, I often have time for only one real war.

However, if you're playing Regent or Monarch level, you can usually build up and expand peacefully, postponing your first war until you get Knights. An early medieval Golden Age, with the Sistine, Sun Tzu and Great Library possibly still around can be the best time to have one. Also, you *should* be out of Despotism and have a decent empire built up giving you more out of your Golden Age.


Samurai
More useful than you might think, because they give you the finest defense available in the early medieval period as well as speed and the best offense around. They WON'T be taking back your conquered cities. Perfect unit for armies, it will kill anything and will NEVER die. I've lose armies of Legions, I doubt I'd ever lose one of Samurais! Once you've built up oodles of these useful little creatures they are still handy to have around until Infantry arrives on the scene.
B+

Rider
I love this one, because I often try to conquer on a shoestring budget and having reinforcements that move 50% faster can be a real boon when your attack bogs down because that damn elite Spearmen of theirs just crippled or killed two of your knights. You can conquer more quickly and reinforce more effectively with these wonderful units. If you're playing on a map with a lot of open terrain, they become even more useful. Once you've managed Engineering, you can skimp on defense secure in the knowledge that your Riders can hurry to the attacked area on your well-developed industrious road network in one or two turns and may even be able to attack, too.

War Elephant
I suspect this one will be handier to have when the multiplayer version comes out. Playing against the AI, getting iron and horses either through luck, trade or ancient conquests is not than onerous a task. Their pillaging and denial of resources are not nearly as well-coordinated as humans would be, and that's when a UU with no resource requirement would come in quite useful.

Until then it's just for players like myself who sometimes refuse to give up even in the face of obvious defeat and marginalization because sometimes it's fun to play lost causes. When I get to the stage where I'm determined to play out every game as a test of my abilities, the Indians would be kinda fun because I know that regardless of how bad my start; I am still in the game militarily through the medieval period.
D

Musketeer
I don't think this one is quite as bad as others do, but admit it's no prize. I think the trick to victory when playing at the highest levels is not to wait and attack when you've built up overwhelming forces, but to make do with smaller forces that are *just* capable of doing the job. While you're building up your juggernaut, the AI is getting more powerful, and if you can nail those cities ten turns earlier, they are producing for YOU during that period, not him. They also aren't finishing up the Wonder you've been building for twenty turns and have only a few turns left on.

As such, I am often in the position where I need to take out one more (often wounded) Spearmen or Pikemen and all my attackers are used up. If I can't take it this turn and get inside the newly captured town to heal my forces, my attack may end up in ignoble defeat and I must retreat and lick my wounds. This is when a Musketeer is real handy to have around. I will usually have at least one Musketman at this point in the game to garrison my conquests and protect my valiant knights while they recover. Sometimes I'm reduced to attacking with a normal Musketmen to take out that last wounded defender so he doesn't heal to full and the city reinforced even more the following turn.

Thus, often I wish my Musketmen had just a little more 'oomph' to it on offense. Enough to waste one last spearmen or take out the last couple points on a pikemen or critically injured musketman. I find Musketeers handy in those situations, and they seem to come up for me a LOT on the higher levels when their production is such it seems like the AI is building another Pikemen every turn.

Otherwise, it can be argued that two Pikemen are superior to one Musketman, and they cost the same to produce, so you shouldn't ever be building musketmen at all. If you're still in monarchy, the added martial law advantage to two units more than makes up for the added cost of keeping twice as many defensive units. I generally (resources permitting) prefer to upgrade though, and if I'm playing the French I like a unit that can attack if need be with the best defense around. I like wasting the AIs wounded Knights, too, now that they don't automatically run away.
C-

Man-O-War
Boy do these suck. I've played the English more than any other position, and each and every time these things have been entirely worthless. I've never even had to use it to trip a Golden Age, I got it through either the Colossus or Copernicus' (I think that was the other Wonder that did it, maybe it was Wall Street or Newton's?)

They come late and are often obsolete by the time you would actually get one built. It takes the AI just a few turns to go from Magnetism to Steam Engine, once you (or especially the AI) have Ironclads, a Man-of-War is kindling wood. Somewhat cheaper, and a little faster, but still worth little in a fight---and why else would you build a naval unit with no transport capability?

I think an ancient 2-3 unit available around writing or a medieval 5-1 'Welsh Longbowmen' would be a big improvement. The best would be a Rifleman with a point or two added to defense or a couple points added to offense and called 'Regiment.' That would make more game and historical sense. If it has to be a naval unit, a 5-5-3 or even 4-4-4 Ironclad would be an improvement.
F



Cossack
I've never played the Russians, but have doubts on how useful an extra point of defense would be in the age of cavalry. I suppose opposing Riflemen would have more difficulty finishing it off, and they'd be somewhat better pillaging behind enemy lines as long as they didn't run into enemy knights or opposing cav, but that's about it. A longer window of usefulness than the Man O' War, but that's most definitely damning with faint praise.
D+

Panzer
Late, but potentially dominant. An extra point of movement when units can finally blitz is icing on the cake. You can mulch three Riflemen per Panzer a turn with these monstrosities, bringing back the halcyon days of Civ II if you can catch an AI not upgrading or behind on tech. It's so late I can't give it one of the highest grades, but better than anything later than the Samurai.
B+

F-15

Heh, go figure. The only unit that adds more than one to any statistic also happens to be the most useless pieces of offal this side of the Man O' War. Dunno for sure what you'd do with one, I can only imagine building one to trip a Golden Age for the spaceship.

A better Idea would have been a 12-8 Marine unit, or a 10-12 Marine unit to try to better compensate for such a late UU. Perhaps an improved Rifleman called a 'Minuteman' or a 'Sharpshooter?' A Carrier with twice the transport capacity called a 'Supercarrier?' It might not be that useful, but it would be fun to build and fill out the air complement!

In conclusion, my ratings are more dependent on what it takes to keep up with 15 other AI on Emperor or Deity. If you don't play those levels, naturally you'll find certain units more or less useful. Although I was horrified at first by the sort of gameplay necessary to keep with the AI at the higher levels, with experience I decided that my usual style of building up peacefully and then dominating or conquering the world with overwhelming force was too easy, somewhat boring and definitely ahistorical.

Having to fight for your life and land from the very beginning is a lot more fun, much more historically accurate (when did any great power get left alone for eons at anytime in history?) and definitely more challenging.

[laissez-faire]

I love the lead-in line to this thread.

[Arrian]

I love the lead-in line to this thread.

Yeah, it's pretty amusing.

Looking back at my post in this thread, I had to chuckle.

Though I have totally changed my playstyle (for instance I now love the Chinese), I largely agree with my original UU grades. I would probably lower the Panzer to an A- or B+, simply due to timing (too late), and boost the Musketeer to a C+ (same reason), boost the Cossack to a C+, and lower the War Elephant to a D (as a warmonger, if you don't have horses and iron by the time you get chivalry... I mean, come on!)

-Arrian

[jshelr]

"A slightly early horseman, that still requires horses. Pinch me.
Yes, it does have all the benefits of the horseman, which is a good early unit, but anyone can build those. In fairness, it is cheaper, which can be a difference maker. Still, it doesn't tickle me with a feather. I picture Yul Bryner in that ridiculous helmet leading his men into disaster. "Onward! Into the temporarily parted sea!""

I like Egypt for its traits and think the UU, which comes very early and very, very cheap is under-rated. The cost is so low that you can flood a neighbor with these well before they are ready to defend. And the two movement helps get you over the empty spaces that still exist at that point. Think of it as an archer rush with a retreating unit. Works like a charm. The early GA is also under-rated IMO. Getting off to a good start is a major bonus and the human player can leverage a lead into a win nearly every time.

[Allemand]

I like playing against the Egyptians, the war chariot is a handicap that I can take advantage of. Usually there are mountains and jungles between us, and I just have to block the mountain passes. In several games, they were unable to touch my horsemen because of this, while I could send raiding parties into their territory then head for the mountains. Nice games.

[Zero]

Re: Re: Rating Special Units

Originally posted by Thrawn05


I did that in my editor. I made F-15 researchable to all civs with the Smart Weapon Tech. I move infantry to Amph Warfar and made Marines the special unit. It works nice. (I didn't replace infantry with Marines though for the US, they can build both, but only the US can build Marines).

Thats terrible... why should US only have marines? marine is not a US specific military branch other nations have it too

[vmxa1]

It just a game. What does anyone care if he plays with only marines for a given Civ?

[Artifex]

Samurai are good as are Riders.

[Jaguar]

Holy thread resurrection batman!!!!!!

[badams52]

I can't remember, was there a thread rating the new UUs? Maybe we should

[Hawker]

Well heres my opinion.

Jaguar Warrior:B
Impi:B
Hoplite:A
Mounted Warrior:A
Legionary:A
Immortal:B+
War Chariot:F
Samurai:A+
War Elephant:B
Cossack:C-
Man-O-War:F
Musketeer:B
Bowman
Panzer:A+
F-15:F

I gave the War Chariot an "F" because it stinks.All you have is a wheeled horseman,sad.

I gave the Man-O-War an "F" too because wars and cities are conquered by land units just like a gave the F-15 an "F" also.I give the Man-O-War an "--F" if such a grade ever exists.

I gave the Panzer an A+ because it has the 3 time blitz ability of the Modern Armor.

I gave the Samurai also an A+ plus because it's like a Knight/Musketman with its attack and defence making it both a good attacker and defender and you also don't need horsesYay!

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior
Holy thread resurrection batman!!!!!!

I quote myself from over half a year ago, because once again, this comment is relevant.