Science City - worth it?

[Unregistered]

It's still worth it to try to max out science in general, but I'd say that the ability to build a SSC has been severely curtailed in civIII. Not to say that you shouldn't try, just that there seems to be less incentive to try to build all the science wonders in one high-commerce city.

I also of the opinion that the science & tax specialists are pretty much crap. Just having the citizen working a tile will usually generate at least two gold, that's double what either of these two specialists will do. I mean, really, what's the point of them? Is it mean to be a general comment on the worthiness of these types in general? I can see it for the taxman, but for the scientist? The entertainers are well worth it though.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

[planetfall]

and beakers help how?

Now I am really confused. What do beaker do,i.e., how do they help you win?

The formula I have for how to get a tech is:



($CostOfTech x $%CivsWithoutTech x $WorldSize) == gold needed to buy tech

With standard constraints:
min: 4 turns
max: 32|40 turns

Numbers I have for some techs:
28 feudalism
32 monotheism
chivalry
36 theology
engineering
music theory

etc


Are beakers mostly for modern era, I haven't finished a game thru the modern era yet. They usually end in early modern era.

I don't see any screen with a count of science, only the beakers for each city on F1, domestic advisor, screen.


thanks

[SanPellegrino]

planetfall, sorry, when it was a bit misleading for you.

commerce = total gold, science, lux.

e. g.: feudalism costs 28. That's a number modified by the things you wrote. let's say feudalism costs 300 "beakers". Yes, these beakers are shown in F1 screen. Your civ produces 50 beakers/turn = you need 6 turns. The more beakers, the better, that's why SC gives you an advantage.

4-turn cap: You don't produce 50 but 150 beakers per turn = 2 turns, but that's not possible, every advance needs at least 4 turns to complete, so you can make your tax rate higher (= less beakers), and discover still in 4 turns.

SC is so good, because a city with already high commerce (Colossus, hopefully river or something) is maxed out for beakers with Science wonders like copernicus- that gives an enormous boost.

English is not my native language and maybe I explained it bad, so feel free to ask again.

[barefootbadass]

One thing to add to the note about the science wonders and improvements being additive on the base beaker count it that the only thing that makes it better than placing them in separate cities is having them all in the city with the most commerce(after corruption). Since colossus can only be in one city that is the ideal place to put the science wonders and the only reason to put them all in that city. Seti program can and should go in a different city if another one has more commerce by then, which is very possible since colossus has expired.

[Thrawn05]

I don't find "science cities" worth it. I set my governers to work on moods and commerence (this helps when pollution strikes at a city, since the computer will put the worker back in place).

I aim for a larger income everyturn, to help fund science in the domestic advisory screen.

[solo]

planetfall,

Beakers are based on commerce, and after being totaled for all cities, they are used in the formula to determine how many turns it takes to learn a tech. Here is an example of how beakers are calculated for one city:

Suppose a city is producing a total of 50 commerce. Without any science improvements and wonders, this translatres into a potential of 50 beakers to be used for research, depending on the science percentage selected on the Domestic Adivisor screen. If science were set to 50% in this city, the total beakers would be 25, half of the 50 beaker potential. Now suppose this city also has a library. Libraries increase science by 50%, so for this city a library could produce up to 25 more beakers. With science set at 100%, this city would put out 75 beakers with a library. Suppose Copernicus were built, too. It would add another 50 beakers to the total, giving 125 beakers for the city with 100% science, 50 coming from commerce, 25 coming from the library and the last 50 coming from the wonder. Of course the beaker contribution for lower science settings would be 12.5 beakers less for each 10% drop.

In CivII, the beaker calculations were cumulative. The city described above would be putting out 150 beakers at 100% science with a library and Copernicus, and adding just a university would boost this total to 200, whereas adding one in CivIII would have given a total of only 150 beakers.

(Edited to correct the comment added at the end about universities, which in either game are just additive)

[planetfall]

Solo: thank you for the explanation with example numbers. Now it is starting to make sense.

Definitely a greater entertainment value than something like simcity. For a new player this game seems more like chess. There are so many different balls being juggled at one time, it takes a bit to learn the necessary play skills to play well. Already figured it will take about a year to learn how to get out of cheiftain level. Definitely beats the boob tube with its current level of smelly garbage programming.

My play style is first fix production and growth modeling and then worry about conquest. I think the key to consistent winning is similar to the simple game Axis and Allies: not winning battles but winning the war production capability race.

Again, thanks for the clearer explanation.

[solo]

I got a message noting one part of my previous post may contain an error, so will insert the jist of it here:

In the last CivII example where a university was added it was suggested that with a base of 50 beakers, a library and university added 50% each to contribute 50 beakers, and that the new total of 100 was doubled by Copernicus for a total of 200, rather than 225.

If true, this would make the library and university beaker contributions additive, with only Copernicus being cumulative, in that example. It's been awhile since playing CivII, so my apologies to any misled by the possible error above.

You are welcome, planetfall, and Axis & Allies used to be my favorite until discovering the Civ series. Have fun learning!

[Platypus]

Planetfall: Absolutely no insult is intended here, but I would recommend against spending too much time perfecting your play on the chieftan level. I fear that you may develop playing habits that make it very difficult to move up to higher levels, since the AI has some serious handicaps at chieftan.

Here's a chart showing how many citizens start out content in each city, what the AI build/advance rate is relative to you, and the bonus you get in barbian combat.

Chieftan: 4 citizens, 200% build/advance rate, 400% barbarian combat bonus
Warlord: 3 citizens, 120% build/advance rate, 200% barbarian combat bonus
Regent: 2 citizens, 100% build/advance rate, 100% barbarian combat bonus
Monarch: 2 citizens, 90% build/advance rate, 50% barbarian combat bonus
Emperor: 1 citizen, 80% build/advance rate, 25% barbarian combat bonus
Deity: 1 citizen, 60% build/advance rate, 0% barbarian combat bonus

This means that it takes AI twice at much effort to build or research anything (compared to you) at the chieftan level. At warload, the AI has to put in 20% more effort than you.

(Some other things change with difficulty, too: Corruption increases with difficulty. The lower the difficulty the more likely you'll get a reward from a goodie hut. Opponents are more leient during negotiations at lower levels. Opponents are less aggressive and less likely to break agreements at lower levels.)

I'd recommend getting one solid win at chieftan, and then moving up to the warlord level. I think that playing at a level where your production abilities are at least moderately close to that of the AI, and thus forcing you to use your human intelligence to beat the AI, will result in more enjoyment for you with the game.

If you have difficulty when moving up a level, take a look at what the AI players are doing differently from you (e.g. founding new cities at a much faster rate during the expansion phase of the game, or creating effective alliances during times of war) and then review the appropriate thread in the strategy forum (or start a new one ), and you should quickly be able to solve the problem and enjoy the new level.

It's true that there are a *lot* of things to learn in Civ, but I think that by reading and using the advice in this forum, you should be able to both play and excel at higher levels, and probably have more fun.

[planetfall]

Good advice, but to have more fun would like the ability to automate workers with the dummies only working on my cities and influence areas and not wandering over to another civ to improve their status.

My plan was to finish game 2 and then apply the patch and start each new game with 2 civs I haven't played with yet. I am limiting games to 3 civs in order to learn more about
each civ's personality before adding more civs to the pile. It might be interesting to add the patch and try the warlord level for game 3.

Yes I have been reading and posting and even started a few posts. Have not finished second game but two AI characterictics bother me:

1. AI initially spits out settlers much faster than would expect. It seems like it does not suffer from hurry production like despots do. {I know "bug" or "cheating", have to learn to live with it as a "balance human intelligence" ploy by firaxis, but still annoying}

2. AI city influence with pop 1-2 extends further than my neighboring city with pop of 6-12 and all culture I could add. This does not make sense. Culture bombs are fun, but starting with a culture border handicap is annoying.

[vmxa1]

I do not think he AI can spit out settlers faster than you (all things equal such as food). At the lowest level you can expand faster than the AI to be first to get 6 cities or more. As you move up they start off with extra units. The editors shows +off + def units and then at highest levels they get type 1 and type 2 units to start (settlers). So if you are playing chief rex like crazy and at the end look at the history and see how fast things go. They seem to get the first 2 cities fast, but after that.....

[SanPellegrino]

Thx Solo for explaining the basic mechanics so well, I know that's not easy.

And thx, platypus, very helpful, a little bit off-topic, but very helpful...

Maybe someone should start a thread about basic game mechanics, would be helpful for newbs and vets.

[planetfall]

SanPellegrino: see thread I started, looking for a basic help sheet.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=41234

Re topic: SC

Since techs are from beakers {yes finally got that, beakers not gold, beakers not gold..},
where is the advantange in have science concentrated in one city rather than spread through out the empire? Isn't there a big danger of having another civ take away all your science by taking the SC?

Also what about the 4 turn floor for tech advances? Is the game changed too much if change floor to 3 or 2 turns? It seems it might be nice to have 100 years to see the effect of longevity, at least once?

thanks

[planetfall]

Platypus difficulty chart

Platypus-- re chart comment: "This means that it takes AI twice at much effort to build or research anything (compared to you) at the chieftian level. At warload, the AI has to put in 20% more effort than you."


The chart seems to be not the AI rate versus you but your bulld rate vs the AI. It seems like the AI build rate would be:


Citizen Content/city -- AI build|adv vs human -- Human Barbarian Combat bonus


Content AI rates Barb Bonus
Chieftan 4 50% 400%
Warlord 3 80% 200%
Regent 2 100% 100%
Monarch 2 110% 50%
Emperor 1 120% 25%
Deity 1 140% 0%


The chart was more confusing seeing it with the reverse numbers.

[planetfall]

table in grid format

Opps, forgot browsers strip spaces AND php script adds many blank returns. Scroll down.

Difficulty level	Content each city	AI build and tech advance rates	Combat bonus to human vs Barbarian
Chieftan	4	50 %	400 %
Warlord	3	80 %	200 %
Regent	2	100 %	100 %
Monarch	2	110 %	50 %
Emperor	1	120 %	25 %
Deity	1	140 %	0 %