The Builder's Perspective Part One - Ancient Era

[Blitzer]

In Civ III, Modern Armor can pretty much roll over anything short of Mech Inf or other Modern Armor. I also have a MAJOR aversion to letting the game drag on long enough for any of the AI's to get nukes. I hate nukes.

This clearly illustrates my point. My games rarely last until the modern era, or rather the AI never hits the modern era. As the game progresses, the offensive units (especially UU's) become less and less effective than their defensive counterparts. It is possible to build a majority of the wonders, while still maintaining your infrastructure and yet win the game militarily. It is this that is my goal, not simply to sit back and play the role of the builder, but use my strengths culturally, tchnologicaly and economicly to vault my empire into dominance, and win the game at the earliest possible date.

What level of difficulty do you play on? (I ask not to condemn, but because I want to know.... I play deity because I like a huge challenge. That's what's fun for me.) Also, what size world and how many opponents? To me, that influences the success of certain styles.

I have not been successful on deity with any of these techniques. I play on Emperor difficulty, as on deity the builder style is simply not as effective as military conquest. I have completed several Deity games, but frankly they were boring. I have won by SS (continents) , Militarily (on Pangea), and culturaly (continents, with the ICS culture strategy). The ICS cultural win was my attempt to win the game as a builder on deity, and if you consider it a valid win (I have my doubts), then yes it is a builder win on deity. However, that used none of the techniques and strategies outlined in this thread.

My SS victory was basicly a horseman rush with the Iriquois that secured my contientnt. Apparently the Zulu did a similar thing on their continent at an early date (for the most part, there were some irrelevant 2-3 city civs still kicking around on islands and such). Although the Zulu and I repeatedly atempted to invade each other's contients and I did manage to build up a tech lead, this game became an insane ironclad-fest that quickly lost any sense of enjoyment, and I was more than happy to complete my spaceship and win.

Having beat deity in several different ways, I prefer to return to the Emperor level as it is more condusive to "fun" play. Yes I do win almost every game, but there is still a challenge, and each game is different.

[ShuShu]

Monarch for me too...

I expect to work up to emperor, and at least try deity, but I am finding that as this 4x genre evolves, deity ceases to be a less play balanced game.

It is interesting to have watched this evolve. Civ I's top difficulty was equivalent to monarchy or emperor today. MOOI allowed you to survive merely by the good graces of the AI which would allow you to survive long enough to compete. MOM reduced the length of time the AI allowed you to grow but added a minumum grace period. CivII was the first time I felt Deity actually reduced my options rather than increased the challenge. SMAC seemed to overcompensate by having the different factions burn off their excess capacity fighting each other without little gain in total power as a result. Now what I hear is that Deity in CivIII makes it impossible to build ancient wonders. That's not an added challenge, that is a reduction of options.

If deity increased the intelligence of the AI that would be one thing, but by merely increasing its production it leaves you with one and only one objective: offset the massive production advantage of the AI. I believe Deity has become a concession to the warmongers who complain these games are not competitive enough and that the lower levels are intended to play the game as intended with all the new gadgets. Plus it is always fun to play checkerboard, turtleshell, Ghengis Khan games on deity just to see how well they work to offset the major advantages.

I just don't take it as such an assault on my manhood as I used to when I decide that I like playing a level lower than Deity.

My eyes were opened to this playing HOMMIII on the highest difficulty. You get no resources to build an army, and without an army you can get no resources. Result: you must play the race that generates an army without the need for resources. Great fun, but if you tire of being a necromancer... well, time to step down a level.

[Arrian]

Hey Blizter, were you planning on writing a mid or late game version of your builder guide?

I enjoyed discussing the early game, and I wonder how different our approaches are later on.

-Arrian

[Blitzer]

I wasn't sure people were interested enough for a middle ages guide... if there is enough demand, I'll post the second installment, it still needs a few hours of work, however.

[GarP]

Builder's Perspective/GL

I am very interested in seeing more on the later eras. Even playing the Aztecs, my game always tries to go toward building rather than conquering. I wanted to ask a question about the Great Library. It sounds as though a lot of players get the GL then quit doing science and let the other civs feed them advances. Every time I get the GL, the other Civs just stay right even with me in technology, or they make sure that only one civ acquires techs that I dont have, until suddenly I get Theology and Education, and it's over. I almost never get a lot of techs out of it. Am I doing something wrong? I seems clear that the AI knows what I've got, even if I dont open the diplomacy window.

Thanks for any advice. It's (almost?) as much fun learning about the game, as playing it.

[KithrupFugitive]

More builder startegy, please!

Originally posted by Blitzer
I wasn't sure people were interested enough for a middle ages guide... if there is enough demand, I'll post the second installment, it still needs a few hours of work, however.

I'd be very interested in reading about pursuing a builder startegy through the middle ages. I realize that engaging in combat is sometimes necessary, but I've never found it satisfying that the Civ series seems to so heavily favor the warmongering style in terms of scoring/rewards. For that reason I have really enjoyed reading this thread.

Thanks!

[Arrian]

GarP -

Here's what I do (Monarch level). My first tech beeline is obviously literature (I usually purchase masonry if I'm not industrious), followed by currency. The GL usually nets me just about everything else in ancient times. Occasionally I will need to research one or two other ancient techs before shooting forward into the middle ages. Builds in my cities are usually: temple, library, marketplace, cathedral, colleseum, bank (with the occasional unit or worker, depending on the situation). Oh, and if the city needs an aqueduct, it gets one as soon as I know I can keep it happy - usually this means either a cathedral or marketplace prior to the aqueduct. My military is usually very thin until the mid-middle ages, but my economy & culture rock, and because of that, I start to leave the AI in the dust.

The first tech I research in the M.A. is Feudalism. This allows me to start on Sun Tzu in my capitol, while a second good-production city is working on the Palace. Then I go for Theology (if I'm playing my beloved Babylonians, I get Monotheism as a free advance, so it's even quicker). The "palace" city switches to the Sistine, and I usually research up the Engineering line (Eng., Invention) for a bit... sometimes I get these from the Library, it all depends on how strong the AI's are. Then I research Education and start building universities all over the place. Then on to Astronomy for Copernicus, then Music Theory for Bach, then I switch back to the other side of the tech tree and beeline for Theory of Gravity for Newton's, then Military Tradition for Cavalry. Finally, Democracy (although if I'm not doing any fighting I may do democracy earlier). Then Magnetism and onward to the Industrial Age. By this point, I'm usually 3-4 techs up on the AI if all is going well.

If I can trigger a Golden Age in the Middle Ages, I will. Often I do it with Wonders (Great Library + Sistine triggers for Babylon, for instance), but probably more often with a war.

Suck the AI's treasury dry by selling luxuries for gold/turn. Once you build up a bit of a tech lead, sell off harmless tech like printing press for crazy amounts of gold/turn. The AI's will all be running 70% taxes to pay you. If you fight wars, aim for more luxuries. Make the whole world dependent upon you for their citizen's happiness, and you will ensure you stay rich and they stay poor - and backward.

-Arrian

[Hermann the Lombard]

Originally posted by Blitzer
I wasn't sure people were interested enough for a middle ages guide... if there is enough demand, I'll post the second installment, it still needs a few hours of work, however.

Well, I'm interested, as I find the transition from "Ancient" to "Medieval" to be one of the trickier parts of the game. Not only is it a time of tech change (and great opportunity for Wonders), but it's the time to switch from the initial strategy to an ongoing strategy.

[GarP]

Builder Strategy/Great Library problems

Originally posted by Arrian
GarP -

Here's what I do (Monarch level). My first tech beeline is obviously literature (I usually purchase masonry if I'm not industrious), followed by currency. The GL usually nets me just about everything else in ancient times. Occasionally I will need to research one or two other ancient techs before shooting forward into the middle ages. [lots of good stuff snipped]

-Arrian

Do you just drop your research to zero until they have to run past you? I've usually continued on one research line, staying away from the philosophy/republic line (since it was said that the AI goes in that direction), hoping to pick up techs on the others, but game after game, the AI civs seem to hold back so I wont get anything (at least thats the way it seems). If I switch to zero or very low research, then the AI can pick one civ to push ahead with research while everyone else holds back and builds units, so I'm out of luck. I guess that is probably what is happening already. It just seems like I dont get enough out of the wonder to be worth it, but I'm hearing a lot of success stories from other peoples games.

Thanks for the other suggestions. Some of it I already do, but there's new stuff in there for me to try.

[Arrian]

GarP,

Actually, I've been leaving my tech/tax rate at 50/50. Like I said, straight for Literature... masonry gets bought, along with the wheel and ironworking, although sometimes I research those (by the time I do, they take 4 turns each because every AI has them already). Doing this on Monarch, the AI blazes past me in tech, though I'm the first to writing and literature. Often, however, I talk to AI's that have 6 or so techs I don't. No biggie, I'll get those from the library. I NEVER trade writing or literature. I will trade alphabet once I'm close to literature, if any AI's don't have it yet.

The AI doesn't tend to go for currency, so that's a tech I probably won't get from the G.Library. That fact, coupled with the value of marketplaces, makes it my 2nd beeline. After that, it's republic, assuming the GL didn't give that one to me. By then, the G.L. gets me construction and polytheism, catapulting me into the Middle Ages.

-Arrian

[Selkirk]

I've been using the egyptians on deity lately. Research wise, I start with the Wheel. Playing the egyptians, it is absolutely essential to find horses.

Also, Sometimes you can trade wheel for bronze working and warrior code if a neighbor doesn't have it. You can sometimes trade masonry, too.

Then I beeline for literature, then beeline for monarchy, then for currency.

I agree with using the warriors. If you build about 2 warriors per settler while expanding, the computer won't straight out attack you, but will extort from you instead. I always give them what they want. If I am going to go to war, I want to decide when.

I usually start building 3 warriors then a settler. I station one warrior in my capitol, then send the other two exploring.

After the REX phase is over, I make sure I have a temple, library, and barracks in each city. Each river city gets a marketplace.

Then, I build chariots in all cities. I'll build as many as I can afford, gradually ratcheting down my science until its at 10%. You don't want to start building chariots until you are fully developed in all cities or the upkeep and corresponding slow down in science will cripple you later.

When I couldn't possibly afford another chariot, then I unleash them on the neighbor of choice. Usually the computer is far ahead and may have musketeers or even knights. If you wait until your opponent has cavalry, you are doomed.

The first attack will trigger a golden age and allow more chariots and more science. I set all cities to building chariots.

With 20 or 30 chariots (sometimes as low as 10 or as high as 50), you can blitzkrieg through a computer player destroying or capturing cities.

Its death by a thousand papyrus cuts for the computer at this point. The chariots are cheap and expendable. Destroy everything and don't slow them down trying to defend them with spearmen. (Destroy cities if you think you can't hold them with 1 or 2 chariots left behind.)

Stop when the computer is down to one or two cities then extort all of their tech.

Switch to the next computer player.

Use the chariots until your golden age is over, or you start to hit riflemen or cavalry.

Then disband them all in your new cities to build temples and courthouses.

Hopefully, you got a leader which you can use for a forbidden palace.

Beeline for democracy.

Build Cathedrals, Banks, and courthouses in all cities plus aquaducts if necessary.

Beeline for the next age, ignoring all optional techs.

Get steam and build RR with your Bazillion captured workers.

Get industrialization and build factories in every city.

Get nationalism and military tradition.

Then build cavalry for war II. You must time this war to occur before the computer beats you to tanks. Sometimes it isn't possible.

With fully developed cities including factories and coal plants, democracy and war time mobilization, you can churn out an impressive number of cavalry.

Seize as much as you can, then make peace and disband your armies for improvements.

The only wonder that I have ever been able to build in a deity game is Hover Dam. I only get that in about 50% of my games. Thats about when I catch up to the computer, tech wise.