Culture-Flipping Exposed

[barefootbadass]

Originally posted by frankdog
In my last game, I captured Beijing. After a few turns the resistance was stopped and I rush-built the Forbiden Palace in it.
A few turns after that, it reverted back to China.. FP and all!

It was moderately garrisoned, I thought the FP would would act like the Palace and secure it for me!

No, it doesn't, never build your FP in a city that has citizens of another civ that is still in the game. Rush a settler(with your citizens!) or something or bring one nearby.

[Murtin]

Originally posted by Easy Rhino
Remember, if the chance of flipping is "only" 5% or so, that's still checked EVERY SINGLE TURN, so the odds of a flip happening EVENTUALLY are pretty decent.

True. I guess the probabilities are usually much smaller than that. If they were in the 5--10% range, with ~10 of your cities neighbouring other civs and equally many foreign cities neighbouring yours, you'd have cities flipping all over the place, and all the time...

[Alcatraz]

I've noticed that empire size seems to matter. On numerous occasions I've had a city revolt and join my empire immediately after losing a different city elsewhere on the map. One possible explanation for this is that the average culture per city (either total generated, or culture generated per turn) is important and that by losing a culturaly insignificant city, my average increased, thus triggering the flip. Interestingly enough, in the one game I won with a cultural victory (Babylon, Monarch level, large map) only 3 cities reverted to my empire through the course of the entire game.

I've also noticed that cultural flips occur more often on smaller maps. This might be because the number of cities is smaller, supporting my theory above. It also might mean that the distance to your capital/their capital is important independent of the ratio. In other words let's say a Russian city is 9 squares from Babylon and 3 from Moscow (3:1 ratio) on a standard map, and 60:20 (also 3:1) on a huge map. The fact that it's "only" 9 squares from Babylon may make it more likely to flip than the city that's 60 squares away.

[Xin Yu]

Originally posted by Alcatraz
I've noticed that empire size seems to matter.

That could be the case. In fact I suspect that 'average accumulated culture' is a key factor. In one game I couldn't find a good site for my capital so I wandered for a long time before settling down near another civ. I had only one city thus the accumulated culture per city was large. An AI had about a dozen cities and far more total culture than me, but still a city flip to me after about a dozen turns (when I accrued enough culture).

[Flight]

Originally posted by Xin Yu


That could be the case. In fact I suspect that 'average accumulated culture' is a key factor. In one game I couldn't find a good site for my capital so I wandered for a long time before settling down near another civ. I had only one city thus the accumulated culture per city was large. An AI had about a dozen cities and far more total culture than me, but still a city flip to me after about a dozen turns (when I accrued enough culture).

That may have just been due to the distance to capital feature of flipping, depends how far the enemy city was away from its capital

[Psycho_Mantis]

Too much Math.

I play Civ 3 to get away from work

Still, some enlightening information.

[Encomium]

Culture Flipping BORDERS

Cities should NOT flip with big garrisons in them, and IF they did, the garrison should either be EJECTED outside the border, or REDUCE THE POPULATION a number of points.


As for CULTURE FLIPPING BORDERS. . . they should NEVER flip on someone else's improvements and fortresses. Never. As things are now, we get blamed for starting a war if we refuse to leave our improvements. And the damn AI NEVER forgets - a thousand years later civs still holdf a grudge.

[JohnE]

Re: Small poll

Originally posted by Unregistered

Has anybody ever had a city flip that had a garrison of offensive/defensive capable land units greater than the city pop? Or greater than the foreigners pop?

Yes, just last night. I had five Tanks and one Mechanized Infantry in a city with five non-resisting citizens of a civilization that still existed, and it defected.

[barefootbadass]

Re: Culture Flipping BORDERS

Originally posted by Encomium
Cities should NOT flip with big garrisons in them, and IF they did, the garrison should either be EJECTED outside the border, or REDUCE THE POPULATION a number of points.

As for CULTURE FLIPPING BORDERS. . . they should NEVER flip on someone else's improvements and fortresses. Never. As things are now, we get blamed for starting a war if we refuse to leave our improvements. And the damn AI NEVER forgets - a thousand years later civs still holdf a grudge

Let it go, a turn is at least a whole year and more for most of the game. There is nothing unreasonable about a coup occurring. Those troops need support to keep functioning.

You must have lost a load of units in your games and never learned to be this upset about this. I generally go with one unit per resister and ML troops or only 2 or so otherwise, most units are out in the field keeping any attackers from getting to the city or from pillaging around it.

[Encomium]

Culture Flipping is a Crock

You think it is "reasonable" for a large garrison of veteran troops to disappear into thin air if a city defects??? I DON'T.

I can't think of one instance of an actual major civ's city "defecting" and the garrison just vanishing. The only times garrisons disappeared is when their entire government collapsed into ruin, as with italy in 1943 or South Vietnam in 1975.

A garrison should either be ejected outside the border or reduce the city's population (in combat).

I think it is absurd that garrisons do not have a major effect on preventing flipping - they in reality barely have any effect at all.

Besides cities, culture flipping borders are another crock. I've had a border flip (GOD KNOWS WHY) on a road, mine, and garrisoned fortress of mine - and then I'm told to get out. If I don't, everyone blames me forever!

"Culture borders" and cities defecting as they do are a figment of Sid's imagination. A city of '12' that had been Roman for 5,000 years does not suddenly decide to join a foreign civ - as happened to me in Civ III.

A lot of people find this "Culture Border" stuff to be a lot of crap, either with cities or borders. For me, it is in my Top Five of things I hate about Civ III.

BTW, "Culture Flipping" is a concept ALIEN to the Civilization games. Sid shouldhave come out with a game called "Culture" if he was so obsessed by it and kept it OUT of the Civ games.

[zergling]

Re: Culture Flipping is a Crock

Originally posted by Encomium
BTW, "Culture Flipping" is a concept ALIEN to the Civilization games. Sid shouldhave come out with a game called "Culture" if he was so obsessed by it and kept it OUT of the Civ games.

Not really.. Cities in Civ1 can also "flip" The city said something about admiring other civ and decided to join them..

[vmxa1]

I have seen some strange flips. One a size 12 that had been mine for centuries and no connection to another civ and flipped back. It had 6 units, no resisters and had been all happy faces? Seems a bit much. I agree, if it has not been long, they are connected to the other civ or it is at least nearby, maybe. This civ had lost its capitol and been forced to move it three times, in other words in was on its last legs. Does not seem right to me.

[Dodgy Geezer]

From what I am reading of the complaints on this thread it all seems to boil down to two complaints:

1. Flipping seems to be way to random, making it difficult to prevent. This grates with strategy game players as there is no strategy for overcoming the it, which makes many players (myself included) raze captured cities unless I am planning to take the whole civ down within a couple of turns.

2. It is not "historically accurate", since cities do not 'flip sides'. I am not sure of this one. Certainly cities have swapped sides in civil wars, but off their own bat, well... you did have Hawaii choose to join the US, and the same thing seems to be happening to Costa Rica (and maybe Mexico). Hong Kong has 'reverted' to China. Various European colonies ended up being part of Indonesia. East Germany reunited with West Germany (maybe Korea will do the same). It's probably worth bearing in mind that cities in CIV3 represent territories, and not necessarily just a city.

My guess is that flipping was introduced to allow for peaceful players a way of growing territory. But as it stands it seems to ecourage huge wastelands to appear in the Industrial Age. Oh well, it is just a game after all.

Just remember, if you don't want to lose a large garrison, don't keep one there. It isn't a major part of the flipping calculation anyway, and the whole thing is just too random to leave to chance.

[Murtin]

Culture Flipping ain't that bad...

Originally posted by Encomium
Besides cities, culture flipping borders are another crock. I've had a border flip (GOD KNOWS WHY) on a road, mine, and garrisoned fortress of mine - and then I'm told to get out. If I don't, everyone blames me forever!

Still raving mad about that one, eh? Well, I'm not God and neither are you, but we both know why the border flipped over that fortress: The fortress was closer to another civ's city than to your nearest city. End of story.

[Arbento]

One question to these formulas: As far as I can see none of them can fit.
Perhaps You know the bug with the settler on a ship - if You sink the ship You exterminate the whole civ which causes the game to crash.
In one of these situations (I'm absolutely sure that this civ had nothing more) one of the cities I had taken from him flipped back. I liked it, since now I could sink his ship and then take back the city and get rid of him, but I was very surprised losing that city.
Any idea how this fits to the calculations?