Trait Combos: Science

[Sharkyy]

just an idea from a relative CivIII newbie:

it seems really dumb to talk about civ strengths one at a time. I mean, you get *two* of them with every civ, so why not talk about them in combination?

Now, obviously some strengths are *in general* stronger than others, but what I'm trying to talk about in this thread is what combinations of strengths work in synergy (i.e. 1+1=3) instead of just co-existing.

For science, while it co-exists very well with other traits, seems to have synergy with religious and militaristic.

Religious: very simple, cheap culture, works for a culture win or for simply absorbing border cities.

Militaristic: Couple reasons- if you're gonna be a militaristic civ, you're gonna have more wars than the average player

This means two things: the strengths of warare magnified, and the weaknesses of war are magnified. The militaristic trait does a good job of maximizing the strengths, but it does *not* minimize the weaknesses. What are the weaknesses of war?

(1) Production. You make more units, duh. This means you've got fewer shields to spend on infrastructure.
(2) Gold/Science. War weariness means more luxuries, which means less gold and less science. Many players seem to give up on science entirely during war time.

add a science trait. Free up resources with the cheap improvements. save gold by not having to buy advances. Improve science by, well, having more libraries and a bonus tech at each age.

This may not get you ahead in the science race, but it'll cover up the soft underbelly of the militaristic player.

Any thoughts? *Please* respond, I need feedback.

[Dienstag]

Good idea considering the synergies of civ traits. I totally agree with the unique power of the scientific/religious combo. I also prefer to play as the Germans, so you hit my sweet spot with the scientific/militaristic combo. I suppose this is somewhat similar to the commercial/militaristic combo (Romans), in that extra commerce and lower corruption also mean higher production and (if player chooses) science rate. Haven't played Romans yet, though...

I would also offer that religious/militaristic has synergy, since the player can research and build powerful army in democracy, then flip over to communism and wage righteous war on anyone, sacrificing citizens for production as necessary, and then flip back to democracy for peacetime. That would be the Japanese, and it sounds like a good deal to me if you can tolerate the concept of a religious communist civ.

Oh, and if you're worried about soft underbellies, just pull a preemptive strike on Italy!

[Arrian]

I, who have a deep affection for the Babylonians, have to agree about Religious/Scientific being a great combo. The Babs are great for culture, but where they really shine is turn advantage. 1 turn of anarchy between governments plus an extra tech per age (3), plus cheap temples/cathedrals/libraries/universities = tech lead, which, of course, should mean victory.

I'm not big on militaristic, though... I personally think it gives expansionist a run for its money for the worst attribute. However, if you're gonna use it, scientific isn't a bad mate for it. Religious is also good (I always think that), for reasons already stated by Dienstag. Perhaps even commercial, if you plan on doing a lot of conquering, that could come in handy, but every time I've seen the Romans (played by the AI), they've been total pushovers.

Your approach is better than taking the attributes 1 at a time, because, as you say, each civ gets 2.

Industrious/Commercial seems to be a good one (I say "seems" because I have yet to force myself to be pink), as in my experience, Industrious really jumpstarts your expansion... and of course commercial helps with the corruption that results. Plus the combination of the extra shields/commerce from your city centers.

Industrious/Religious is my 2nd favorite combo, because quick expansion + early culture + 1 turn anarchy = a good way to build up a lead.

Can you tell I like religious civs? Well, I think it's a great trait, because I HATE wasting 5+ turns in anarchy to change governments (which I do twice, normally), and because your culture sucks early on... even if you trade for or research ceremonial burial, the temples take too darn long to build.

I've played around with the Indians of late, and I think they're decent. Religious/Commercial is solid if you do ok in the early expansion part of the game. If you get cut off and boxed in, however, it's kinda weak.

Ok, I've rambled long enough.

-Arrian

[Aeson]

I think the worth of attributes depends more on the situation than anything. Synergies depend on the map type, desired outcome, and strategy used to obtain that end.

For instance, Expansionist and Scientific (Russians) doesn't work well on small maps where conquest is the main goal. But on huge maps, with a more enlightened goal (space race, cultural, diplomatic) the two attributes can work perfectly together. The early expansionist advantage, combined with cheap science improvements later on, can give a Civ in an unbeatable Tech advantage.

The way I see the combinations and their best uses, not accounting for UU's.

Industrious/Expansionist - early exploration, find the best city sites, and connect/improve the empire quickly.

Industrious/Religious - build up an early cultural advantage.

Industrious/Militaristic - more experienced troops to the battle lines quickly due to more roads.

Industrious/Commercial - build up a great core empire, and it can be slightly larger due to less corruption.

Industirous/Scientific - lots of commerce from roads, and cheap libraries make for the best early science rates.

Expansionist/Religious - find the important city sites, and claim them early with culture.

Expansionist/Militaristic - find everyone else early, and wipe them out.

Expansionist/Commercial - find the best sites for your core cities, have a good set up for later in the game.

Expansionist/Scientific - find the other civs early, broker your tech advantage from huts and cheap libraries to them.

Religious/Militaristic - great for taking and keeping the other civ's cities by culturally keeping conquered cities, or defending culturally aquired cities.

Religious/Commercial - for some reason I can't think of where poor Ghandi has an advantage, but I'm sure there is a reason to choose the Indians. Oh yah, rich happy people!

Religious/Scientific - best cultural combination, also one of the better research oriented ones as well due to quickly switching governments.

Militaristic/Commercial - fight your way to a large, less corrupt empire.

Militaristic/Scientific - get a tech advantage, and use it to dominate militarily.

Commercial/Scientific - less corruption, less % needed for taxes, better research capabilities, best tech combination in the game.

I think overall, the Religious combinations have an advantage. Scientific, Industrious, and Commercial are quite evenly balanced. Militaristic and Expansionist depend heavily on map type and desired victory condition. On a huge pangaea map, nothing else comes close to Expansionist, but on an archipelago small map, it is by far the worst attribute. On standard continents maps, it's just so-so. Militaristic is the most important attribute for war mongers, but in peaceful games has practically no use. In most cases though, I find the UU to be a better determination of the Civ's worth, but thats just me.

[Sharkyy]

well, i was gonna try to just discuss a couple of traits at a time, so here goes the next one...

Religious.

By common consensus, most people seem to think this is the best strength in the game. The trick is maximizing this strength. What that means is shifting the way you play the game so that the religious advantage is utilized more often.

The religious advantage has a couple of basic parts:
(1) Virtually no Anarchy
(2) Cheap temples, etc.

So, it makes sense that maximizing your advantage in religious would involve a style of gameplay that utilized religious improvements and changes in government more than the average bear.

Everybody builds lots of religious improvements. They help with high population cities, they are a must if you're a "builder" style player, and they help out with war weariness. So that part of the advantage seems to be a pretty moot point, except prehaps if you combine it with science for the cultural victory as discussed above.

But guess how you can take advantage of having no anarchy? Two things:

(1) War. Lots and lots of big bloody wars. You can switch to communism (or despotism) without punishment, and experience virtually NO war weariness, especially with your low-cost temples.

(2) Pop Rushing. Those convenient little trips back to despotism to kill off some pesky citizens (maybe even foreign nationals) to build nice helpful things like courthouses.

So anyway, with religious i would play with scientific or industrious, cuz i think those are better traits, but religious actually synergizes better with militaristic.

You will note that I never talk about expansionist, that's cuz I've been playing on maps that are standard size or smaller, and thus would never use expansionist civs.