yet another "Why do I keep losing?" thread

[eataTREE]

Thanks, and questions about War...

Thanks to everyone who responded for my plea for aid.

I am beginning to think that my problems in my current game stem from the fact that my starting location is buttville... I have two squares each of two types of resources (Furs and Horses) on the entire subcontinent where my civ is based. Also, there's no Gold anywhere to be found. No wonder my civ is broke.

I was wondering how you succesful civvers set your objectives when going to war with your neighbors. Is it ever wise to wage a "limited war", or should you never stop until the other civ is eliminated or subjugated?

I had a bad experience with this while playing the Egyptians. The Americans were my neighbors, and they declared war on me when I was not expecting it and conquered a section of my territory. This annoyed me, so after I managed to reconquer my original lands, I went on a slash and burn raid deep into American territory, razing 3 or 4 of Abe's bigger cities and putting the captives to the sword (hey, I didn't want to deal with the logistical nightmare of escorting 15 American workers back to my territory without having them recaptured). Anyway, my raiding party was running out of steam, so I signed a peace treaty. However, the Americans held a big grudge! Several turns later, they declared war on me again, and this time it didn't go so well for me. I have the feeling I did the wrong thing by giving the Yanks time to get back up. Any thought on this issue?

r.

[Arrian]

War

If you're going to fight an early war, pick a neighbor who has luxuries you don't. Attack a neighbor, because the cities you gain may actually produce something, rather than lose everything to waste/corruption. Make your choice based upon luxuries, because these are incredibly important, and they remain so for the entire game (whereas the importance of strategic resources comes and goes). The best method is to attack, take anything worth taking, and then demanding all of their tech, gold and cities. This will leave them with one city which you can destroy at your leisure later on, if you want to. It will also gain you technology and money to go along with cities and luxuries.

Basically, if you can get tech out of them, then totally anihilating them is silly, because then you don't get the tech. Still, it is a bad idea to leave them strong. Beat them down to 1 city. That way, they can hold a grudge all they want, but they can't hurt you.

By the way, I didn't mention this before because I've done it right from the start: once a new city has a garrison, the next thing I "build" is a temple. I say "build" because it's actually by working some of my poor subjects to death that the project is completed in anything resembling a reasonable amount of time. This gives you solid culture early on, which helps prevent conquered cities reverting (diplomacy is a bit easier with the AI also, if they are in "awe of" or "admire" your culture). Plus, the temple makes unhappy people content, which deals with the fact that you just pissed them off by working them so hard.

-Arrian

p.s. Heliodorus - That's pretty much how my first few forays into Monarch went. I was always behind in tech, which was a new thing, and I couldn't deal with that. I have since gotten the hang of it, and have won my last two games. Starting location is even more important, of course... and I admit that I restart if it doesn't look good after a few turns of exploring.

[Haphazard]

I fight wars:

To expand early on.
To get resources/luxuries from backward civs.
To get Leaders for wonders (I hardly ever use armies).
To get tribute; gold/turn or tech.
To nobble a powerful, or potentially powerful rival.
To retaliate against an aggressor.
To claim a continent.
To win the game.

For the first and last two I fight to the death. The other are limited. The nobble approach eataTREE mentioned is very effective - if you're in the lead.



I try to sue for peace:

If their defensive units are better than my attackers.
If I'm caught upgrading/expanding my army.
If my population is screaming for peace.
If I'm fighting on more than one front.

To quote someone around here: 'Build an army, then start a war. Not the other way round'


(Monarch level is pretty tough. Even with only 3 civs on the board I still don't get the wonders I like. Still, I got a tech lead in the Modern age, and nuclear war is very effective - launch nukes at their capital and resources patchs!)

[eMarkM]

eataTREE, it would help a lot if you could post your save game to the forum. Zip it up and attach it. All the advice so far has been good on this thread, but kinda generic. If we can see your game we could give more specific advice.

e

[Velociryx]

There is a section in the strategy thread that talks about how the local geography of your starting position impacts your game. Part of that impact is as simple as

few resources = poor = high player aggression to succeed.

Essentially, if you find yourself in a resource-poor area, you must be agressive and you must be agressive *sooner* rather than later....that is to say, before the AI empires have a chance to firmly establish themselves.

Also consider the prevailing nature of the terrain you're in.

If it's rugged (low food production, lots of forests and hills, possibly tundra), then you won't be able to make much use of the pop-rush, but you'll have good shield counts, and if this is the type of start you're looking at, then keep your empire small and compact to minimize corruption and get the most out of those shields, augmenting with the occassional pop-rush (but I'd say no more than twice).

OTOH (and at the other extreme), you might have started in a desert along a long river/flood plain. TONS of food, but virtually no shield production. In this case, you can expand a lot more, and a lot more quickly, cos you can pop-rush more frequently to get around corruption, but you have virtually no "native" shield production (ie - once you switch out of despotism, you'll have giant cities that can't really MAKE anything).

Likely your start was not as tough as either of those (vast desert, or tundra), so you'll probably have a good mix of shields and rushing available.

Now...to your upcoming battles:

1) As has been mentioned...resources. Specifically Lux items in clusters, Iron, and Horses (ancient era). If you can deny a neighboring civ his only source of either iron or horses, you've all but eliminated that civ from the game.

* Eliminate his supply of horses, and your fast troops are nearly unkillable (retreat when wounded)

* Eliminate his supply of iron, and your opponent has nothing that can match your swordsmen as far as offensive punch goes (note too that in some cases - Persian, Roman), their UU *requires* iron, so you can hurt them in multiple ways by simply denying them that resource.

Individually, either of these are crippling to the AI. Both together are a blow that cannot be recovered from.

2) You won't need an overwhelming number of troops. In a recent regent-level game I'm making into a story, I fought a comparably sized civ with 14 units, and captured three cities with ease. Pop-rushing can net you that many troops inside of 5 turns, in all probability.

3) Stay focused. Pick some limited objectives and don't get distracted away from them....especially don't get lured into running down enemy troops! If you want, say, the town nearest their supply of spice, the town that controls their iron, and that other town that sits between you and the two you want, then beeline for them, hit them quick and get it over with! Don't get dragged into a centuries-long war of attrition with the AI.

The longer the conflict drags out, the higher the probability that something unforseen will come up, and that it will not be something in your favor.

So...get in....hit hard, and make peace to consolidate your gains.

Remember, you can re-declare war on the same civ every 20 turns without taking a hit to your reputation, so if there are a number of objectives you have, you don't have to hit them all at once (ie - don't over-extend yourself!). Nibble away at him, slowly strengthening your position while weakening your rival's....

-=Vel=-

[ledj]

I played 5 games so far, and managed to win in most of my games. The latest one was on deity. Here is my limited experience.
(1) At higher level, a militaristic civ is preferable.
(2) Always try to found the capital on a grass land with a cow near by, and on a river square ( great commerce. no need for aqueduct and allow hydroplant), even if you need to move your first settler one or two turns. If you can not achieve this, you may need to restart.
(3) Set your research low and commerce high for gold production. Buy all the necessary techs.
(4) Found the second and third cities on or near luxuries, if possible.
(5) Built barracks in most of the cities.
(6) In despotism, use pop rush to build the city improvements and the military units.
(7) Produce 10 - 12 veteran military units.
(8) Conquer one of your neighboring civ and take all his techs. Use the leader to build a forbidden city in the center of conquered cities. Sell remote cities for techs.
(9) No research until you build the infrastructure and change the government to rep.

[Harfang]

I am pretty much in the same situation as eataTREE, but I managed to get out of the ditch at Regent level--though I've admitedly restarted several games. What helped me out?

1. I read Vel's strategy notes (just the first of the three threads, and not fully). The problem is to pick out what will work for us. The advice is great, but to try to absorb and apply it all at once is just too overwhelming.

2. I played on small maps. I find that limiting the number of opponents somewhat simplifies things when you don't have a good grasp of the situation to start with.

3. I played the Persians and then the Iroquois. They have the best ancient special units. Not only are they great offensively, but, even more important, they have a very long shelf life compared to other ancient units; they basically don't become obsolete until the Middle Age, and then mounted warrior can be upgraded to knights. Use them liberally against neighbours to get some serious breathing room for your expansion.

4. I build roads like there's no tomorrow and leave the gold/research at 50/50. I never have gold problems in early game. I also aggressively build road to luxuries and to connect my cities. I've noticed there's almost always a clusters of luxuries close to my starting position. As an aside, I noticed on a couple of occasions that the AI can get seriously ticked off when you secure too many strategic resources while it is itself short of them.

5. I beeline to monarchy. True, I do get behind for a while, but then watch what they'll offer you for it! I can walk to the most advanced civilization I have contact with, demand four techs and all its gold for it. Just like that. Too bad we can't ask for their firstborn son too. . .