Vel's Strategy Thread - Part Three

[pchang]

AI's more beligerent

It might be my imagination, but it seems that post patch, the AIs are more willing to fight it out to the end than before. During an early conquest (2500BC or so), it used to only require taking 2 cities from an AI before they would be willing to give you everything for peace. Now, they won't even talk to me until I've taken 3 or 4 cities (1 of them being their capital). This is causing me to cripple at least one of my intended vassals beyond the point of usefulness.

Patch notes also said that culture take overs had been made more easy. In my last game as Babylonians, I did not take over a single city via culture. However, this may have been due to my impatience since I was taking quite a few cities by force of arms.

[Arrian]

"...like a giant, pink vulture..." *shudders* That's enough to give someone nightmares. Perhaps this game should be the basis for a new and improved "Veloci-a-France" over in the stories forum.

I think what you're creating (re: Germany) in your game can be characterized as a "junior partner" as opposed to a vassal or client state. This is an AI empire that is large enough to be useful to you in war. Not really useful, but handy, you know? They can also afford to buy things at good prices. I have a similar case in my game with the Chinese, except that I've never hurt them in any way. The Japanese did that, and then I killed the Japanese,

Here's a question for you though: what do you do (hotshot) in the late industrial age, when you and others are beginning to close in on motorized transport? Do you take them down before they can get Panzers (and thus a golden age) or do you allow them to flourish?

-Arrian

[eMarkM]

Now, they won't even talk to me until I've taken 3 or 4 cities

Yeah, I noticed that, too. I had to take out six modern cities for Iroquois to receive my envoy. IIRC, I had to take out at least 3 from my early vassals as well before they gave in. The vassal was kind of a one shot deal, couldn't play it over and over again because they got too weak from initial beating.

I thought maybe it was just from the difficulty level I was playing at. But maybe it was something included in the patch to slow down vassalization. They've certainly done other things, like culture-less razing, to make the early strategies found on these forums more difficult, so I wouldn't be surprised. If so, definately makes an Occillation Strategy more appropriate.

e

[mlepinski]

A couple notes on culture:

1) Someone mentioned that they had never seen the AI lose a city to another AI civ due to culture. I can assure you that it definately happens. In the industrial era, I was fighting a war with Eqypt to get oil and my Chinese buddies were helping me out. Eqypt was on a continent by themselves. I came in with swarms of infantry and artilery and took the southern half of the Eqyptian Isle (including all their oil) and the Chinese took a couple cities in the North. I stopped the war when weariness started to hurt and leader rushed my palace into a captured Eqyptian city. China built very little culture in the Northern cities they took and it didn't take long after the war ended for those cities to revert to Eqyptian control.

2) Someone had mentioned that taking cities with culture doesn't seem any easier post patch. I'll second that remark. Despite what is said in the readme, I haven't noticed any difference in stealing cities with culture. It would be really nice to know the equation that's used to determine the chance of culturally acquiring a city, but I have no idea how to figure that out.

- Matt Lepinski :->

[Velociryx]

LOL...yeah, the Giant Pink Vulture image was just too good to pass on....heh...spooky stuff!

As to more aggressive AI...I agree! What's more....I mostly like it! True, when you're beating the SNOT out of the AI, they should know when their goose is cooked and just surrender, but they're not pushovers, and they won't just cry uncle at the drop of a hat anymore.

To Arrian: Quite so, on the Germanic state. The game's beginning saw me putting them into the oscillation mulch machine, turning them into a client state in the early game (sold them horses). From there, during the first Ruso-Germanic war when they (all of three cities) were in danger of being overrun by a much larger (15 cities) Russia, I made the decision to bolster Germany specifically to let them deal with the Rus for me. So....I happily joined them in the fray against the Russians, and bulked them up with a couple of cash and tech.

After fighting the Rus to a standstill (I kept warring with them until I got the message that they and the Germans had made peace), Germany began expanding aggressively, competing with the Rus for space....so I figured it'd just be a matter of time before trouble brewed anew, and with that in mind, went ahead and made a standing RoP agreement with Germany. Meanwhile, my armies turned their loving attentions on the British, kicking them off of the "big island", and then retired to German soil (the germans built two cities in what would be Norway today). So...with a big army up there, and horsemen/swordsmen being cranked out of France proper, with clean lines running through the heart of Germany and straight to Moscow, we were all set.

That's why I got a little miffed when I saw a Russian spear-chucker in France (all by himself, too!)

I told him to leave, and he said he would....didn't.

Then I noticed 4 swordsmen, 4 archers, 2 horsemen, and 3 spearmen (hard NOT to notice that, I admit! LOL) heading for the German nordic cities, so I just told Russia to either leave my turf or declare against me. She DoW'd, and I proceeded to unleash hell itself (10 catapults) on her big force....they got so badly bruised that they were easy pickings for my horse troops (and the army I had stationed up there). (also enlisted the aid of the germans against them....an opportunity that Bismark positively LEPT at!)

I'm actually still fighting the Rus in that game. Should finish it out tonight...have given Germany five formerly Russian towns, with three more on the hit-list. When all is said and done, they should be about equal in size and power to russia, and I can officially leave that part of the world stage alone for a while. But yes....given Russia's aggression, I found that the Germans served me much better in the role of a Junior Partner....that's been good stuff!

India and China though....those are my two nearest rivals in terms of both power and culture.....might have to engineer some trouble out that way....using Japan perhaps? That could be interesting....

Now....about those Panzers..... I have this LOVELY vision of hordes of German panzers at my beck and call...perhaps helping me boost the Babylonians with the destruction of Persia? (ultimately setting up a Babylonian/Greek war to keep them busy?). Yes...I see German Panzers in my future, and it looks pretty cool to me...heh....

-=Vel=-
PS: I think though that if Germany starts making TOOOO much ground on Russia, I'll quietly start supplying the russians with tech....can't let them get tooo uppity....

[Arrian]

Careful now, Vel. Pretty soon you will find yourself in front of your computer rubbing your hands together in anticipation, murmuring "ssssoooon, my precious, ssooon" as you envision yourself the master puppeteer of geopolitics... only you will be in front of your computer at work, and your co-workers will think you've lost it.

I have a question about engineering far-away wars. In order to do it, you have to get an alliance vs. someone or get an MPP and figure out how to have your target attack you. If you sign a military alliance, doesn't that lock you in for 20 turns of war (provided you want your reputation to be spotless)?

Hmm... I'm not explaining this very well. Say you wanted to engineer an asian war in your game, Vel (but do be careful about those land wars in asia, ok?). Say you call up the Japanese and convince them to join you in an alliance vs. China. Your objective, as I understand it, is simply to stir up trouble for China and knock them down a peg or two. Even if you're doing this pre-republic/democracy (so no war-weariness for you), there is a downside. For one thing, China isn't gonna like you much, and since they're not gonna get wiped out you're gonna have to deal with them later. For another, what if China wastes Japan and gets stronger? I don't know, but in my experience the AI ends up causing trouble for itself - usually in the industrial age. Then you can pick a side to bolster w/money or tech.

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

Hate to break it to you, brother Arrian, but I think my coworkers already think I've lost it...or at the very least am pretty far out there (hmmm....::as he stops to contemplate:: Perhaps it has something to do with that whole "loosely tethered to the shores of reality" comment I made....LOL)

And yes! I must admit that this whole puppettering thing has really been fascinating for me! I'm enjoying this aspect of the game much more than anything else so far. Who wants to control the world directly (ie - own every corruption-ridden city)?! Much more entertaining to practice building civs up and tearing them down as local politics and the winds of change blow across the playing field....eventually engineering the destruction of some ('specially if anybody wants to mess up my fun by attempting to build the space ship or something! Can't be havin' 'em do that! ::evil grin:: ).

As to that asian land war....it'll be REALLY interesting to see how that shakes out. I think where possible, I'll stand clear of it entirely, tho I will likely make a RoP agreement with India to station a token force over there (good use of my soon to be obsolete Longbowmen). Put them there, get an MPP with India and Japan, and then get someone (possibly India/Japan, possibly someone else) to join me in an embargo on China....they declare war, I make sure my longbowmen are very much in harm's way on Indian soil...whamo.....the plot sickens! I love this stuff!



-=Vel=-

[pchang]

Best Game

My best game so far was an incredible stroke of luck. My first warrior went exploring in pretty much a straight line and about 15 tiles later ran into (an captured) a Japanese worker. Two tiles later, he dan into Kyoto defended by 1 warrior. For the heck of it, I attacked, and lo and behold, I won! In addition to capturing Kyoto, I also captured two more Japanese workers (I guess that explains why the pop was only 1). With a great start like this, I was golden for the rest of the game.

[mlepinski]

Post-Patch Trading

I noticed the following situation in a recent game:

In the early game, I'm the only empire with contact with India. I soon meet Rome and France. I decide to trade Communications with India to Rome for some cash. I then go to France and find out that they already have Communications with India. Now, either I'm dreaming, or someone traded communications with India to France during my turn.

I think this is a result of applying the patch since I've observed situations like this several times since patching and I don't remember anything like this pre-patch. Has anyone else noticed this type of behaivor?

Thanks,
- Matt Lepinski :->

[Quurgoth]

Another purist game

I'm in the final stages of winning another "purist" game (no IFE, no pop rushing, city placement at least 4 squares apart, etc.). This time I almost managed to win without a war, but I must confess that I succumbed to temptation and embarked upon the eventual annihilation of France after I got cavalry.

A few observations (large/regent/continents/restless, America):

1. Expanisionist is AWESOME for peaceful games on a large map.

a) One of my early goodie huts yielded a settler (!), which became a city on the edge of my northern border with India, and which was placed smack in the middle of four spices.
b) I eventually controlled the world supply of four luxuries, with multiples of each, which was HUGE later in the game for restoring damaged reputation, gaining tech, making money, and keeping the AI happy with me. I also (!) controlled all of my continent's iron, which I NEVER traded to anyone.
c) I was fortunate enough to be located roughly in the center of four AI civs, and I was able to crank out enough scouts (sending them in each direction) to get contact with them before they contacted each other. This meant I was able to trade for every tech... by the end of the ancient era, I was 5 techs ahead of some of the civs.

2. Stabbing your ally in the back can be your friend

I made an MPP with India fairly early in the game, as India was the only civ between myself and Egypt, where Cleopatra was behaving pretty aggressively. I wanted a partner/buffer, so Ghandi and I became pals. To my total surprise, however, France attacked me along my southern border!

Perhaps this is due to my "turtle" style of play... I build 1-3 defensive units per city, workers, and that's it. Maybe she thought I was weak... but when I refused to cave in to her demands for my map and cash, she felt she could run over me.

I proceeded to complete an army of cavalry, while India sent its war elephants down (slowly, as we had no RoP agreement). Once I amassed enough cavalry to take three cities in one fell swoop, I attacked... and Joan refused to surrender. So I took a few more cities. Eventually, she agreed to peace, but DOH! That really peeved Ghandi. He still doesn't like me, hundreds of years later.

After I made peace, Ghandi and France continued their battle, and shortly thereafter Persia and Egypt declared war on France as well. This left me sitting pretty: France is the southernmost civ on my map, with my fairly large territory to her north, so the invading civs took a loooooong time to get their armies, one square per turn, to battle. During that time their tech and cultural production slowed considerably, and I was able to culturally absorb a few Indian cities.

Eventually, France was annihilated (alas, as I like vassals), and I worked long and hard toward repairing relations with India. I've also been left with four smallish cities along my southern border, which I assume I'll eventually be able to culturally absorb.

I think the key here was the MPP and eventual desertion of my partner... I was able to focus on tech, culture, and defense, while the AIs went to war. This left me a HUGE lead in the trade game, in which I managed to earn ~700 gold/turn from the opposing civs, which left me with the freedom to discover tech every 4 turns.

3. A late golden age is FREAKING HUGE. My golden age came as I was about to embark upon the Hoover Dam... and WOW, did it make me a powerhouse. I was able to complete my defensive armies (ramping up to a minimum of 2 defensive and one artillery per city, with more in border towns), complete the Dam, Intelligence Agency, and Battlefield Medicine, and even more importantly, I was able to get factories in nearly every town. I left the AI in the dust due to that golden age

********

Although I'm not playing at a high difficulty level, I hope someone out there who enjoys playing purist games can get something from my observations... this game is so much fun!

[DaBear]

Wierd Trades

I'm doing the tournament now game so I haven't patched yet but this was weird.
I'm trading with Germany
They have Music Theory and I want it to trade to others.
I ask him "What will he take for it"?
He answers "I can't see that it is possible"
I figure lets see how close I am
The Offer
Gems (fairly rare on the map) 42 Gold per turn and 328 gold
Not acceptable.
As I'm clearing the table manually I notice when left with only 328 gold he will probably accept ... Huh?
I sold it for 308 gold.

Now I'm wondering since I was @ 100% Tech my gold per turn would have been in the negatives but my trades ( I love being a merchant/broker) brought it positive. In trading do the other civs take this into account or do they think I'm a bad investment?

As a side note to merchant/brokers consider the type of civs that are with you in a tech race, especially those with a edge on development time. Don't research the same tech if given a choice. Don't use the crystal ball of saved games but understand the opponent civ. Example a military civ will generally research a military tech over any other given a choice. If everyone is left with only one tech ... turn you research engine off...make money and then trade for it... then throttle back up.

[Adam Wallock]

DB-

There is clearly some sort of new bug in the AI bargaining behavior. I have noticed instances like your example and times when I ask the AI what they'd offer for X, they make an offer, I tweak it, the Advisor says they'd NEVER acept that, I set it back to the AI's offer and it's now somehow unacceptable. But if I clear the queue and make the same offer The AI will agree to the same deal. (Does that make sense? )

Anyhow I reported this in the Patch thread over in the General Forum, but Firaxis hasn't acknowledged (AFAICT) the existence of a problem here.

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark... (err....Civ3)

[DaBear]

Originally posted by Adam Wallock
DB-

There is clearly some sort of new bug in the AI bargaining behavior. I have noticed instances like your example and times when I ask the AI what they'd offer for X, they make an offer, I tweak it, the Advisor says they'd NEVER accept that,"

Most of the time it means the civ can not offer you the $/turn you were requesting...
[/QUOTE]I set it back to the AI's offer and it's now somehow unacceptable. But if I clear the queue and make the same offer The AI will agree to the same deal. (Does that make sense? ) [/QUOTE]

Most likely it was a marginal trade and as such the threshold for his offer will be lower than yours (It was their idea :LoL)...


[/QUOTE]Something is rotten in the state of Denmark... (err....Civ3) [/QUOTE]
"Is that a dagger that I see?"

[Nero Would]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Profoundly important bit from Jeff Morris - Firaxis

If you capture a city that has not generated any culture, you will Raze that city, regardless of its size....
(snip)

Are you sure about the "regardless of size part? Jeff's post in the "v1.16f: Issues? Bugs?" thread says

This should have been in the readme.txt. If you capture a city of population 1 and the city has generated no culture, it is automatically destroyed.

I have seen other people post that cities larger than size 1 have been razed, so perhaps Jeff changed the wording in a different post.

[sophist]

Originally posted by DaBear

Most likely it was a marginal trade and as such the threshold for his offer will be lower than yours (It was their idea :LoL)...

I think he's referring to the sort of behavior I too have seen. You ask the AI what it will pay and it puts up an offer. You think, ok, good, but I want world map. Nope, unacceptable. So you take world map off, leaving the offer exactly as it was offered by the AI initially. Nope, unacceptable. Clear the table, ask them again what they'll offer, and you get the same thing.