Useless submarines

[martin3393]

More on Subs

Well, anything I have to say about subs should be taken with (several) grains of salt. In my first game, I was rolling along as Germany and had conquered a huge continent and was just starting to think seriously about sea power when I suffered the "save game corruption" bug. Now, it doesn't seem worthwhile to play until the patch since I can't count on loading my games. Because I had only just developed the destroyer, anything I say about subs is purely speculative and is based more on my experience with other similar games.

I am, however, interested in theorizing why many such games include stealth units that virtually everyone then (correctly) complains don't work as they're supposed to against the computer. The previous post on how forcing the AI to follow the rules on subs would mean that s/he (my AI is a she, I'm pretty sure) would have to escort ships as players do suggests the likely answer: the AI can't do that, evidently. In years of watching what I assume to be similar AI's in CIV, CIV2, SMAC, SMAX, and CTP, I have never yet witnessed the AI move a group of disparate ships across a body of water in a rational and strategically sound fashion. Perhaps this AI is smarter, but in my limited play, I've not observed much substantial difference. Thus, if the AI can't escort very well, allowing players to build wolf packs of invisible subs would rapidly mean that the AI would have to surrender the oceans to the player. At the very least, the AI would have no hope of getting a transport across an ocean. Therefore, the designers allow cheats that make the unit rather stupid. One might say that the very idea of the unit, however alluring it may be, violates the capacity of the game so long as the opponent is automated.

Of course, I write this wishing the contrary were the case: I'd like to use subs too! For God's sake, I was playing Germany!

Plus, I'm still mourning the demise of my favorite piece: the mini-skirted, sun-glass wearing, stiletto-heeled spy (Gosh, her outfit didn't give her away, did it?)! Stealth units really are not faring well in Civ 3. I used to devote one of my better industrial cities solely to the production of spies!

Michael

[Garth Vader]

I think you are "supposed" to see everything in your cultural borders. I suspect that includes subs. I tried moving a sub into somebodys borders and I got the move your units message.

Later I left a number of nuke subs with tactical nukes loaded near, but outside a couple of civs. They never saw those subs.

[minmei]

Many reloads because of subs

I've seen another one, hopefully not another bug...

I'm pulling back my fleet of battleships (late game) from a war out east to their home cities for repair. They are on automove back to the cities.

Suddenly an advisor states I lost my supply of wines and furs.

And I get to see my battleship take out an ally's sub. Now I'm at war.

Reload.

Only way around is to use the movement keys, since only then will it pop the dialog box to ask if I want to take the darn thing out.

Arrgh!

[Barchan]

Hmm. Good point, Garth Vader. I don't know for sure, but I think that the sub I hit was within my coastal waters, and I didn't see it. I'll try to test that more later.

Martin, I don't know if the AI is any good at moving armadas of ships, but I have seen some fairly intelligent naval activities: transports escorted by battleships, carriers stacked with multiple capital ships, stacks of ironclads. I've also seen a few dumbo moves, such as empty carriers flung into the great unknown alone and without aircraft. It's a lot better than the willy-nilly naval ops of previous Civs and SMAC, but admittedly I haven't put it fully to the test.

Mostly due to the fighter non-interception bug. The Zulus pounded my mighty fleet with wave after wave of normal bombers, despite the fact my 3 Carriers each had a jet fighter assigned to Air Superiority missions. What's the point of trying to engage in a naval war when the enemy can ream you from afar and you can't do squat about it?

But anyway, that's off point. Frankly, if destroyers and Aegis cruisers have a visibility of two (and can see subs at that range) I don't see where the AI couldn't intelligently move convoys. The destroyers zig-zag, scout ahead, and clear the way for other units. Sure, the convoy moves slower, but that's the price of survival.

Air units should also be able to spot subs. (Again, due to the utter lameness of fighters at sea, I haven't really put this to the test. But if they can't, this needs to be fixed in a patch as well.) Using a few fighters would also allow you (or the AI) to reconthe way ahead and sweep it clear of subs.

But with subs as weak as they are, why bother? I'm a bit disappointed in them. I'd really like to see a nuclear attack sub, one that had a higher attack rating, could see other subs, and couldn't carry missiles. It'd be just as expensive as the missile sub, but more useful for naval operations. Oh, and the attack sub would be faster as well.

[SerapisIV]

Originally posted by Barchan
But anyway, that's off point. Frankly, if destroyers and Aegis cruisers have a visibility of two (and can see subs at that range) I don't see where the AI couldn't intelligently move convoys. The destroyers zig-zag, scout ahead, and clear the way for other units. Sure, the convoy moves slower, but that's the price of survival.

The destroyers can't see subs. The Civilopedia says that only Aegis cruisers and other subs can see regular and diesel subs. No mention of destroyers (also no mention in the destroyer entry either, though the Aegis entry says they can so them)

I find this odd, as why else would you build destroyers? I think only choppers or bombers should be able to see subs, not fighters. There should be an Anti-sub search like there is a bombard command.

[SlightlyMadman]

Accidentally attackinc ally subs

I must agree with minmei here about this bug. I was playing in a game where 2 strong allies (Chinese and French) and I were waging war against the Romans (who were the largest nation, and in danger of achievinc military conquest). We all ended up building massive navies and bombarding his costal cities and improvements.

Throughout the course of this campaign, I accidentally ran my battleships into Chinese subs at least 4 times. I would then have to reload from the autosave, as I did not want to go to war with my strongest ally! This became extremely aggrivating, as I had to stop using the goto command, and move my ships around a very long coastline by hand.

Very sloppy.

[Dominator_Jones]

I am not so sure how the AI is programmed to respond to subs. I was in a war and had a lot of subs moving around on defense. When the AI moves it's transports, it moves the transport then moves the battleship protecting it. It blindly would move a transport into a sub which would sink the transport.

[minmei]

I've seen it too! Their transport moves first, then the escort, destroyer or battleship, and one move at a time, not the full range.

Instead of seeing the escort moving 5 spaces, "clearing out" the path for the transport, then the transport moving,

you see transport move a space, escort move a space, and so on.

Good thing, it should be an easy bug fix. Who in their right mind would move the transport first? And since they have obviously thought of the escort in the AI, why backwards?

Shove, shove, shove the game,
right on out the door,
Nobody cares if it's all full of bugs,
Infogrames will sell more.

Couldn't resist.

[Capt Dizle]

This is so sad. I wish the art and sound budgets were spent on gameplay and the gameplay budget was spent on art and sound.

This is why I buy 2-4 games per year now instead of the 12-24 I used to buy.

Whoever is making these marketing decisions is driving the pc game market into the ground. I guess we will all be playing consoles in a few years.

[Barchan]

Minimei:

The only reason I can imagine moving the transport first is to avoid starting an accidental war; since non-combat units can't initiate combat, if a transport bumps into a sub nothing will happen.

Perhaps the bug is so obvious even the AI can see it!

SerapisIV:

I noticed that destroyers are not advertised as being able to see subs, but sort of assume (and hope) that they can. Why the hell else, other than not being able to wait for a battleship, would you build one then?

True, true, ASW is traditionally the role of the bomber and chopper and not the fighter. But since fighters can perform Recon missions, it would make sense (game-wise) to allow them to spot subs and other naval units. You'd get one air strike (bomber or fighter) at the sub and then it would dive (disappearing from view) and could not be reattacked until respotted. My $.02, anyway.

[MisterMuppet]

Originally posted by Barchan
Perhaps the bug is so obvious even the AI can see it!

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by Barchan
I noticed that destroyers are not advertised as being able to see subs, but sort of assume (and hope) that they can. Why the hell else, other than not being able to wait for a battleship, would you build one then?

Destroyers can't see subs. If you look at the entry in the editor, you will see that there is an unit ability called "Can See Submarines" which the destroyer does not have selected. It is simple enough to change, though.