How to use Privateer effectively?

[mrpie]

I found a webpage with many ironclad pictures and it's worth noting that very few of them look like "upgraded" frigates.

Ironclads

[Sarxis]

Yeah, Privateers in Conquests are great. Enslavement works nice.

Can you say privateer fleets?

[Puma]

I dont have c3c but I think privateers are a nice component in civ3. I use them for scouting (within AI territory) and just for the plain fun of it. I only wish they had a retreat ability.

[planetfall]

Interesting seagoing ironclads:

color image, HMS Warrior, sail and steam

http://www.hmswarrior.org/images/hbounda.jpg

Naval ages and history intro

http://www.wideopenwest.com/~jenkins/ironclads/foreign.htm

best black and white images "First Ironclads"

http://www.klaus-kramer.de/Schiff/Panzerschiffe/Panzerschiffe_1/Panzerschiffe_1_engl_top.html

most interesting may be these:
French LaGloria, combo wood and iron
British, Warrior, steam was only slightly faster than sail
Russian Pervenetz, floating battery
British Agincourt, 5 sail ironclad
French Le Tigre, ram ironclad
Peruvian ironclad in floating dock

American Ironclads

http://www.klaus-kramer.de/Schiff/Panzerschiffe/Ironclads_1/Ironclads_1_d.top.html

http://www.klaus-kramer.de/Schiff/Panzerschiffe/Ironclads_1/Ironclads_1_engl_top.html

Enjoy

== PF

[alexman]

Originally posted by Nor Me
I've used a submarine and privateer to start a war but I'm not sure I shouldn't feel bad about it.

Where's Stuie?
You can start a war with a submarine (or even better, a submarine blockade) and no privateers, so I wouldn't feel bad about it...

As for privateers, I agree that in C3C they are useful when used in stacks. If you have a stack of privateers, your losses in battle can be offset by the gains from enslavement. Because of their unique abilities of hidden nationality and enslavement, it wouldn't be fair if they had better attack stats. Players would then be tempted to use them instead of Frigates in battle, which is not the intended purpuse of the privateer.

[planetfall]

Alexman,

Easy fix to temptation to use privateers instead of Frigates. Make them more expensive.

My suggested values have 1 less Off, 1 less Def, and 1 less bombardment vs Frigates, and they are very vulnerable to Man-o-War's. This is why I increased values for Frigate and ironclads, etc. They would not stand vs ironclads. They should be able to take on galleys/caravels and stacks could handle galleons, but they could not stand up against Frigates and other naval defenders.

AI usually protects early transports with Frigates so hidden nationality should not be an advantage to the human. I noticed in scenario Napolean, British AI used a lot of privateers. So AI has no problem using these units to attack unprotected early transports.

Enslavement does not work all the time, but rather often. New enslaved unit is regular and not veteran. What would be the result of attacking a Frigate-Caravel pair with privateers?

IN OFFENSE
Frigate def == 3
Caravel def == 2
Privateer off == 3

Privateer1 vs Frigate1
50:50 odds
Privateer2 vs Caravel
60:40 odds

Best 2 Privateers eliminate a Frigate and Caravel.
Worst 2 Privateers lost and takes 2 more to eliminate Frigate and Caravel.

Frigates cost 60 ea. Caravel is 40. Increase cost of Privateer to 70.
So if Frigate+Caravel equals 100, and 2 Privateers cost 140. Splitting evenly battles, means a NEGATIVE cost of 40 to use Privateers.
Note the regular privateers from enslavement seem to have very weak battle outcomes. I suspect there may be another variable here than just hit points.

IN OFFENSE
Frigate offense == 4
Caravel offense == 1
Privateer defense == 2

Odds of Frigate knocking off Privateer are 2:1. Caravels would not attack. So to use Privateers would be double negative. Defensive odds would be 2/4 instead of 3/4 for frigate and would cost 10 more.

Less offense, less defense, more cost == little temptation to use Privateers instead of Frigates.

What do you think?

-- PF

[steven8r]

I don't generally build Privateers. The few that I did build usually died quickly.

However, I have seen the AI use them 'sort of' effectively.
1. A couple of times, a neiboring civ whom I was at peace built them and bombarded some of my infrastructure. This didn't really irk me because I was industrious and could replace the damage in 1 turn--it did peeve me a little and moved that civ up on my 'Whom shall I conquer next' list. I knew to whom they belonged because they would strike, then duck back into a city.

2. I was in a time of relative peace w/ everyone and was using unescorted Transports to move some Settlers to a new continent. I saw a Privateer hanging around and was concerned for my Transport. It never attacked, but it did make me think twice about sending-out unescorted Transports.

Since the AI never (once non-transport, fighting ships are available) sends-out unescorted transport ships, I don't think that the human player would ever get the benefit of that tactic.

[TheArsenal]

Originally posted by steven8r

I knew to whom they belonged because they would strike, then duck back into a city.

They also move only during that civ’s “turn cycle”, which can be another way to identify the owner.

[Risa]

Originally posted by alexman
As for privateers, I agree that in C3C they are useful when used in stacks. If you have a stack of privateers, your losses in battle can be offset by the gains from enslavement. Because of their unique abilities of hidden nationality and enslavement, it wouldn't be fair if they had better attack stats. Players would then be tempted to use them instead of Frigates in battle, which is not the intended purpuse of the privateer.

Sadly, you can NOT enslave enough privateers to offset your casualty.

Let's say, 3 veteran privateers strike an unguarded veteran galleon or caravel. Using the combat calculator, the probability of sinking enemy galleon is 97.3%, but the expected casualty is 0.726 privateer (assuming no promotion), and expected enslavement is only 0.324, net loss 0.402 privateer, or 0.413 privateer (worth 20.65 shields) per successful sinking. In fact it is more than that, as the enslaved one is regular, not veteran, and promotion of galleon makes the situation worse, too.

Then let's consider 3 veteran frigates attacking a veteran galleon. Frigate has the same attack value as privateer, but frigate can bombard. Thus it'd best use two frigates to bombard the galleon, and the third one to attack. By this method, the probability of sinking galleon is 80.3%, the expected casualty is 0.197 frigate, or 0.245 frigate (worth 14.7 shields) per successful sinking. There's no promotion here, so this statistic is a solid one.

[alexman]

So you are saying that your losses in Frigate shields are on average 3/4 the losses in Privateer shields. Is that so bad? Frigates are supposed to be better than Privateers in combat. If you are at war, it's better to use Frigates. If you are at peace, use Privateers.

If I had to make a change to Privateers, I would give them free maintenance. Enslaved Privateers have free maintenance anyway. And it makes sense in terms of realism too.

[Risa]

Well, that is because frigates are not much good, either. I just didn't fully realise how weak it is before that post.
Anyway, I like your suggestion, alexman. I'm now satisfied.

[planetfall]

Alexman,

I gave up on using Privateers as default values did not make sense and it was too annoying difficult to maintain custom settings across patches.
But minimum changes I would make are
1) your free maintenance idea, and
2) increase defense to Caravel.
Since they were either captured Caravels/Galleons or weaker Frigates, it does not make sense they would only have the defense of a galley.

I don't play with adjusted values suggested in this post. I was just suggesting they might make for an interesting scenario that would more the privateer a more valuable unit.

With default values, they are only useful when you're ahead and are looking for a bit of variety in game play. I can't see how it is cost effective to use them.

== PF

[TimHobbit]

The one thing I don’t see in this thread is the main historical reason for privateers: commerce raiders! There are all these comparisons of value to the other ships, but what about the cargo? The AI seldom sends out a transport that isn’t transporting something! That caravel you just sank might have had 3 knights on it, or even a settler or two. I kind of wish it would say what went down with the ship. I personally build lots of privateers. I use them to explore, hunt barbarian galleys & when I get enough, I send them to choke points or obvious shipping lanes in stacks of six or more. That seems to be enough to take the 2-frigate/1-galley stacks the AI likes to use. Remember most of my privateers are vet or elites. I use the captured regulars to hunt barbs and get experience.

[notyoueither]

I have a lot of fun with Frigate/Privateer stacks, especially when war breaks out and the Frigates can bombard to weaken the prey for the Privateers to finish off. You get many baby Privateers that way. I had about 20 Privateers in one game. I only built 5 or 6 of them, the rest were free and free of maintenance.

[Sarxis]

Originally posted by TheArsenal


They also move only during that civ’s “turn cycle”, which can be another way to identify the owner.

But is this so bad vs. the AI? Besides, knowing who is using the privateer doesn't even matter anyway, you can't (in game terms) justify a war because of marauding privateers, even though you know or suspect which opponent is using them.

The one thing that bothers me about using Privateers is the AI's uncanny ability to hunt them down.