Jungle Blues

[Knecht]

I just started another game and am already ready to quit cause of the jungle blues. Maybe I'm giving up too easily but whenever I'm in this situation, I wind up getting screwed. I play huge maps on regent, so I don't usually have to worry about other civs until the middle ages and I do have time to rex a pretty big civ before turning to warfare. But the situation I'm in now, it seems like there's no way I'll be able to keep up. My starting position is on the edge of a single huge continent (though with pangaea you sometimes get one big one and one little one) and I have about enough grassland and plains around me to build five or six cities and then its nothing but jungle (and some mountains) for fifteen or twenty tiles in every direction (looks like more actually, I'm still slogging through it). Of course, the one saving grace of a situation like this is that it's insular. It takes anyone else a long time to get at you and it makes their fast movers useless. But - if I want to build any kind of decent-sized contiguous civ, I've got to build (at least!) twenty or more workers and set them to nothing but clearing jungle and even then it takes so long that any city I build in the jungle grows so slowly that by the time I do get the jungle cleared away, I am so far behind I can't catch up. You waste so much time and energy with a machete in your hand that other things get pushed down the queue - all those workers that should be roading and mining and irrigating are whacking at vines and chopping down trees instead. And when you find yourself at war and need to crank out military, those anemic jungle cities can't produce the shields to do it fast enough. And it's not just situations like the one I'm in now. I've been stuck in several situations with some pretty good grassland and plains to grow in but with a large swathe of impassable jungle on one side and one or two fast growing civs on the the other and, even if I rex like crazy, it isn't long before I'm up against my neighbors and have to start growing into the jungle. It's like hitting a brick wall. I know you need to grab some jungle to get a decent chance at coal and I always try and do that but if you're stuck with a third or more of your empire in jungle, it really drags you down. Nowadays whenever I see that I'm in a situation like this, I just fold and start another game. Am I giving in too easily? Are there other up-sides to the jungle blues? Is there a practical method of knocking that jungle out quickly and getting those jungle-bound cities to grow more quickly?

[PrinceBimz]

Not to mention units sometimes dying from jungle disease It will put you behind starting in a situation like that. Anyway, don't restart and give up though, it takes the fun out of it Keep getting workers and clear those jungles as fast as you can. In the meantime hopefully you will get contact with other civs. When you do concentrate on getting territory maps first, then world maps. The bottom line is your civ needs better land, more land and valuable resources.

Eye out a weaker civ which has richer and more valuable land then you. If there is one and you can get a decent military together, you may want to consider an attack. Of course if you can get to an unpopulated island or continent without starting a war, thats even better. If you can find just a half populated continent thats good too. If you can't then war will have to be an option and maybe your only way catching up. You really have to plan it all out though and make it work. A good military attack strategy can be very effective but just not 100%. So in the end, it may or may not work. Its all worth a try though. Good luck!

[Arrian]

Two questions:

1) Are you industrious?
2) Can you get one or more cities in the non-jungle area up to +5 food/turn?

The thing about jungle is that once you cut it down, there is beautiful grassland underneath it. Even if you're not industrious, with granary cities pumping workers, you might be surprised how fast you can turn a big jungle into a nice place to be. Still, it's better not to have to deal with that

If you're a builder who is going to lay low until at least the middle ages anyway, you've got time to concentrate on some jungle chopping, right?

-Arrian

[CerberusIV]

1 Play as an industrious civ.

2 Use the editor to reduce the number of turns it takes to clear jungle (imagine your workers suddenly have the bright idea of burning it!)

3 Play as the Indians and use the editor to allow War Elephants to treat jungle as clear. Then you can strike at the other civs easily and their units will be obsolete by the time they struggle through the jungle to get to your core cities.

[Arrian]

2 Use the editor to reduce the number of turns it takes to clear jungle (imagine your workers suddenly have the bright idea of burning it!)

Then you ought to get plains or even desert out of it instead of grassland, though

-Arrian

[Knecht]

The thing about jungle is that once you cut it down, there is beautiful grassland underneath it.

Yeah, that's true and there's the coal thing too. I hate it when I've got a nice big civ thumping along on all cylinders and then, after researching steam, my coal is just across the border in someone else's jungle and I've got to go and fight for it (just a builder at heart I guess). And another good thing (just trying to pick up on your positive tone here), as you push the jungle away from your civ, you're also pushing it in your neighbor's face. Even when it gets thinner, it's still going to stop their fast movers like a brick wall. Also a good way to think about mountains. Think of them as "my mountains". Nobody ever conquered the Swiss. And, if you have time, you can build fortified escape hatches in the jungle and mountain walls so that you can get out easily but your neighbors can't use them the same way. Also the principle of the Royal Navy, I suppose. Own the wall.

[Alexander's Horse]

start a new game

[Knecht]

Or I could start a new game.

[vmxa1]

It really comes down to what you prefer. If you want a new experience, go for it. If not start a new game and have more fun.
Some times it can be interesting to gut out bad starts, but on a huge map, it can be depressing.

[MrWhereItsAt]

I get this a lot, and often with less good land than can handle 6 cities.

The worst thing is slogging away through it. If you can actually summon up the courage and patience to clear it all away (means you build more granaries/workers and fewer of anything else) then you will often find yourself reaching a great position in the game. The only bugbear is ensuring you still have Iron and Horses, so you may need to expand beyond the jungle for these things.

Honestly, jungle starts are demoralising, but you can end up doing rather well in the midgame (indirectly) because of them. What difficulty are you at? If you can avoid wear (Monarch or lower), then concentrate all your energies on pecefully expanding and clearing. You may not get as much as some other civs, but you will have set yourself up to take them on later.

[vmxa1]

If he has all the mountains he mentioned, I would sure hope one has some iron. Now that would be a real nasty deal, all that jungle and mountains, get no iron or coal or gems.

[Aqualung71]

I presume that if you clear jungle, you reduce your chances of getting those late-game resources that turn up in jungles....such as coal, ummm, rubber too? (I forget). Perhaps somebody who knows could clarify on this point.

Personally I like the challenge of clearing jungles, due to the rewards that can come in the industrial age once you've accelerated your growth by first irrigating your cleared tiles, then mining....remember that often the cleared jungle tiles end up as shielded grassland.

Also, it seems to me that the AI rarely settles on jungles, so you can keep that artificial national barrier there without bothering to settle it for some time, concentrating your workers on improving your core cities....then send all the buggers out at one to clear it and transform your empire with a swag of new settlers.

Cheers!

[Aqualung71]

I presume that if you clear jungle, you reduce your chances of getting those late-game resources that turn up in jungles....such as coal, ummm, rubber too? (I forget). Perhaps somebody who knows could clarify on this point.

Personally I like the challenge of clearing jungles, due to the rewards that can come in the industrial age once you've accelerated your growth by first irrigating your cleared tiles, then mining....remember that often the cleared jungle tiles end up as shielded grassland.

Also, it seems to me that the AI rarely settles on jungles, so you can keep that artificial national barrier there without bothering to settle it for some time, concentrating your workers on improving your core cities....then send all the buggers out at one to clear it and transform your empire with a swag of new settlers.

Cheers!

[Brundlefly]

It is more of a challenge when you start the game in a jungle or have to expand into it early. I generally will crank out more workers than usual early on in such a game. On Deity, however, I will just start the game over because there is no way to get a powerful base of 6 cities if you are in or near a vast jungle.

If you would rather not deal with jungles at all, then make sure the world creation settings are not 'wet' when you create a new game. Or keep starting the game over...

[Arrian]

I presume that if you clear jungle, you reduce your chances of getting those late-game resources that turn up in jungles....such as coal, ummm, rubber too? (I forget). Perhaps somebody who knows could clarify on this point.

Incorrect. Clearing the jungle will have no effect. The resources are placed there at the beginning and will still show up when you discover the right tech, even if the tile is now grassland instead of jungle.

-Arrian