Research taking forever?

[joesnyder1]

Hopefully someone can help on this...

I have recently gone back to playing CivIII (always go back to the favorites after trying the crappy games) and after starting a game, I noticed that I didn't seem to be doing too well...seems like it took forever to research anything...

I then did a little experiment: I started a game on Chieftain level, created my first city, and set my first research target (to Writing) which the game says will take 40 turns. I then changed my science spending level to 100% (doubling the commerce going to science from 2 to 4) and the game says my reasearch will take...40 turns! I then set science spending to 20% (from 4 commerce to 1) and the game says my reasearch will take...40 turns!

I did try waiting a turn to see if the time to complete the research would change, but it never did.

Am I missing something? Help?

[Stuie]

Research has a minimum number of turns (4) and a maximum number of turns (40) regardless of how much you spend on research. Thus, it will never take more than 40 turns to research a tech, no matter how little you spend on research. Conversely, you can never research a tech in less than 4 turns, no matter how much you spend.

Given the above, learning to tweak your tech slider appropriately is a big key to a successful Civ experience.

Try changing your research from Writing (which is relatively expensive in the early game) to one of the first tier techs like Pottery, and then the slider should make some difference.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Joesnyder... I asked for an explanation of this once, and, from the masters - and there are definitely civ masters a plenty on this board - I recieved, in essence, this vague answer: "Some techs, like Written, are just really expensive"

!

Needless to say I was stunned and a little upset to hear such a nebulous response, but so it remains to this day. Apparently you can go into the editor and look at the exact price, but certain ancient era techs simply take a long, long time to research.

On lower difficultly levels, you can set your tech slider to the max level, and as a commercial civ, it's possible to attain a tech lead, based on your roads, your land, etc. Still, on higher difficulty levels, I don't think I'd be presumptive in saying that most players set their tech to about 10% and accumulate gold instead, for whatever purposes.

In you attain an edge in the early medival or late ancient era, it's then feasible to set your tech level to a "normal" rate and maintain a tech lead... although based on your strategy, this might not be the best path to take.

[Datajack Franit]

It's all up to the strenght of your economy, you can even put the science slider on 100% but it will have no effects if your cities produces near-0 revenues

[asleepathewheel]

well, when you only have a handful of cities, your aren't making enough beakers to learn anything quickly. I usually, on Emperor, set tax to 90% or so and research something, usually the path to republic.

once you get libraries and marketplaces and road network, you will be able to research much faster.

[Mad Bomber]

Joe:

One of the problems here is that there are many variables that determine both beaker production and tech cost. In your example it is extremely early in the game (less than 10 turns into the game) and it would take an extrodinary amount of time to dissect every possible reason for this. Play the game out a little more (say to 1000 BC) and if you are still having problems then post a save and I am sure that many people would be more than willing to look at the game and offer a critique.

In the meantime here are a few tips to help increase you science rate.

1. Road every tile you work, especially the tiles that produce the most commerce.
2. Look for good commerce sites to place your cities, make sure each city is working at least one good commerce site (gold, luxury, fish, whales, tiles adjacent to river ect)
3. Build market places, libraries and other commercial and scientific improvements
4. Use the Commerce/Science/Luxury sliders frequently. Until you get used to them you should check them every turn. Check out all the possibilities, you may be able to research a tech at a relatvely low rate for a few turns and then change to a higher science rate for the remainder at a better return than if you had just researched the tech at that rate for the entire time.
5. workers are the key to the game, make sure that you have enough to do all the tasks that need to be completed.

[CerberusIV]

It is worth remembering that research is usually slower at difficulty levels below Regent, partly because the AI takes forever to research anything and you end up having to do it all yourself without the benefit of other civs already having a particular tech.

[Dominae]

Here's a concrete example:

Say a tech costs 120 Beakers to research. Let's not go into how this precise number is calculated, because I doubt a formula is what you're looking for. Assume that your empire is only one city strong (your capital city). Then:

1. If your capital city produce 3 Beakers per turn at 100% Science, then you will research the tech in 40 turns.

2. If your capital city produces only 2 Beakers per turn at 100%, it will still "only" take 40 turns to research the tech, because 40 turns is the maximum time it takes to research any tech.

3. If your capital city produces 10 Beakers per turn at 100% Science, then you will research the tech in 12 turns.

4. If your capital city produces 60 Beakers per turn (that's one powerful city!) at 100% Science, you will not research the tech in 2 turns, but rather in 4, because 4 turns is the minimum time it takes to research any tech.

Where you put the Science slider is not really important here. What you should really be looking at (if you're worried that your research is not proceeding as it should) is the "Expenses" section of the Domestic Advisor screen (F1). There you will see exactly how many Beakers are going toward research every turn.

One last thing: do not worry that it initially takes 40 turns to research Writing when you start the game. Once you build another few cities, you will accumulate Beakers more quickly and therefore the time to research Writing will jump down in steps. For instance, your research time could look like: 40, 39, 38...27, *build city*, 15, 14, etc.


Dominae

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Very good point, Dominae. The more cities under your belt, the quicker the research goes. Excepting, of course, for corruption.

[Harovan]

More productive cities and more commerce speed up research. In the early game, you can get more commerce mainly by building roads and by micromanaging your laborers ("city workers"), so they switch to commerce tiles (river tiles, lake tiles, coast with fish) whenever you don't need the production. Remember: Build roads, roads, roads, every laborer should work at a roaded tile.

[MysteryMan]

Scientists and Taxmen

Has anyone ever found themselves using Scientists or Taxmen? I have tried them in cities ranging from size 1 to size 25 and have seen no difference at all in my beaker/gold production for that city, nor have I seen a difference in the amount of time it takes to research a tech. Does anyone know how/if they work?

I find that the best (often the only) way to develop the tech/gold lead is by finding certain sites for cities. Rivers are absolutely KEY to this equation, but a coastal city with a harbor does just as well. You will need a long time (or a lot of money/pop to burn) to get the library, temple, etc, but each square gives 2 commerce (oceans) plus whatever whales, seals, otters, fishies, crabs, etc..

Try founding a city on top of a hill with gold on it. You will be pleased and astonished at the results. My last game I actually managed to found my capitol there. Imagine my pleasure when on my first turn I was making +3 gold per turn (at 50% tax...!)

I actually think that gold bearing hills are the BEST place for a city, BAR NONE. Anyone disagree?

[Harovan]

I use scientists on very rare occasions. Sometimes I will use one in an otherwise corrupt or unproductive city, to get to the 40 turn research at 0% science. Simetimes (very very seldom) I will use a scientist for a turn or two to speed up a key research in the early game (like Pottery), if no commerce tile is available.

I use taxmen quite often in completely corrupt cities, usually at other continents. Here I take advantage of the fact, that a taxman gives one gold per turn regardless of corruption. I irrigate such cities, use high food tiles to let it grow to the happiness limit (food is not affected by corruption) and then I set as much citizens to taxmen as my food surplus allows. Nets some nice gpt in cities which would otherwise give only one.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I use taxmen quite often in completely corrupt cities, usually at other continents. Here I take advantage of the fact, that a taxman gives one gold per turn regardless of corruption. I irrigate such cities, use high food tiles to let it grow to the happiness limit (food is not affected by corruption) and then I set as much citizens to taxmen as my food surplus allows. Nets some nice gpt in cities which would otherwise give only one.

I do the same with Scientists too. I've seen this reduce my research time on a couple of occasions, and therefore try do so in this way in all my games now. It's just another level of micromanagement that sometimes pays off.

MysterMan: the Beakers from Scientists do not go into the city Commerce box, but directly toward your empire's research. This is important because they are not affected by research-enhancing improvements such as Libraries.


Dominae

[Theseus]

Re: Scientists and Taxmen

Originally posted by MysteryMan
I actually think that gold bearing hills are the BEST place for a city, BAR NONE. Anyone disagree?

On a river... yeah, I agree.