Yet Another Celtic Thread

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Sorry to add yet another thread about the Celts and the Garlic Swordsmen. I am now playing as the Celts for the first "official" time (i.e., not just screwing around to see how the UU is animated), and I must admit that I'm damn frustrated by the GS.

The reason I started this thread is that, after reviewing AU 206: Gallic Glory, I noticed that most of the players got ahead of their game using archer rushes, against atypical neighbors - I might as well have read a good general archer-rush thread (no offense meant to the brave men and women who designed and played AU 206). Other discussions of the GS involved its modification. This thread is meant to discuss its effective use as it stands in the current game.

First of all, I notice that the GS is replaced by MI with the advent of feudalism. Has this ever been fixed in a patch, or is this just a major flaw of design?

Secondly, isn't the GS just too damn expensive? Sure, sure, it's a "powerhouse," but I've still lost a few of my GS to spearman defenders - not the most likely outcome, but likely enough to occur with some regularity. Building a unit that takes 4-6 turns to build during a golden age is ridiculous, IMO. I want to use my GA is either build a massive army or loads of city improvements/wonders. I'd be happy if my 15 or so cities (I play a huge map) could build a massive army, but the most they could really get would be around 45 GS, and those UUs are going to upgrade to Medival Infantry?!?

I'm not saying the GS isn't a great UU, even the best UU of the ancient age. I'm just saying I don't know how to play the Celts properly and I need some advice.

Thank you everyone.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Re: Yet Another Celtic Thread

There was a first one?

[OPD]

If you consider that you can get an immortal for a meagre 30 shields GS aren't really worth the bother. 5 immortals or 3 GS? Only a game where 30 shield units wastes alot of the your shield production could they be worthwhile. Perhaps in a game with accel prod where you have alot of size 12 cities in a GA producing 25+ sheilds they may be a good idea but otherwise I wouldn't bother. I've never played as the Celts, but in theory you should really recieve money when you upgrade them

[Harovan]

There was a first one?

Some time ago there was a discussion about the Gallic Swordsman. "Clipping the Celtic Wings" was the title, IIRC.

[Gufnork]

The key to win with celts is to never have a GS die. They reach the enemy fast and kick butt. But you can't afford to lose any of them, since reinforcements are few. I much prefer MW:s, who cost less than half as much and only lack 1 def, which isn't that important when you can retreat. The cost is simply too steep for them to be that good. Your point about hopeless upgradepath is very valid as well.

I might miss something though. Early wars isn't exactly my strong side.

[CerberusIV]

Exactly the thoughts I had some time ago. I gave up on stock PTW about a week after I first got it and generally play a version with modded units, particularly the less good UU's.

I ended up reducing the cost of the GS to 40 shields. The AI can cope with that when it has the Celts and it isn't overpowering with my style of play if I have them. It also means that the upgrade to Med Inf is free, rather than a loss, if you want to take it.

That still leaves the GS as the most expensive ancient era unit.

50 shields would be reasonable if the Celts were industrious and could get mines done to generate the shields needed - the reason Carthage can handle a 30 shield spearman replacement. The Celts aren't industrious so it is too expensive and the flawed upgrade just adds insult to injury.

The Berserk is the other dodgy PTW UU. Great if it works and you are on the right map, useless against knights if you have to fight on land. I cut their cost to 60 shields, require iron, and have them substitute for Med Inf, not Longbowmen.

[OPD]

If I was to mod the UU the main thing I'd do is swap Immortals and Legions around so that the Romans get the 4 attack unit. 4 attack sword is huge and IMO the Romans having it is more historically pleasing as the Legions were the big fighting force of the time. Also immortals would still be strong and the stats would match the name more

GS costing 40 sounds alot nicer also if it were up to me I'd give berserkers a free boat for every 2 built

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Well, bad unit or no, I want to learn how to play the Celts as is. I seem to start relatively isolated quite a bit (only 3 or 4 neighbors) which suits me fine. That makes use of the GS actually practicable. I only have to build about 15, maybe 20, to take out 3 neighbors (on regent mode). Of course, I need to accompany them with other units, esp. spearmen to occupy and pacify my newly conquered cities. That's the only way I can see use of the GS effectively.

In my current game, on a mini-continent with England and Germany, I wiped out the English with archers already and have not built a single GS (though I've got iron hooked up). I'll probably do culture early this game (normally I put that off as long as possible) and then take out the Germans with 15 or so GS and trigger my GA to coincide with the early medival era (my favorite time. Sun Tzu's, Sistine, and Leo's, anyone? )

Still, I don't see how the Celts could really rock it on higher difficulty levels, other than through archer rushing and horseman wars - i.e., with skill and a fair dose of luck. Those GS just seem too damn pricey. If they didn't upgrade to MI, that'd be one thing.

[Arrian]

Yahweh,

The concensus of those of us who played AU206 was that the GS was not, in fact, overpriced. Or rather that 40 shields would be too cheap (personally, I think it's probably "worth" 45 shields, but there the game uses 10 shield increments, so that's out).

The keys, for me:

1) Archer wars/disruption. You were right about this. Archers are important for the Celts. Don't worry about conquest - your aim is to hurt the AI. Set them back. Maybe take a city or two. Fish for leaders if you can. But more importantly - deny the AI iron if at all possible.

2) 40-turn research, hording cash. The aforementioned archer wars should get you tech from your bruised opponents, which helps. Your own research (once you have a couple of the essentials early on) should be done at 40-turn pace, focusing on things like Polytheism so you can trade those to the AI for the ones you are missing. Horde that cashola, and head for Monarchy.

3) Upgrading. DO NOT BUILD GSs FROM SCRATCH!!! Warriors -> GS's. 80 gold a pop. Which means that you will need 1200 gold for 15 Gs's. So aim for 1200 gold, 'cause 15 is plenty. The best way to do this, IMO, is to build a solid core group of cities and then stop REXing and allow them to grow and work high commerce tiles (better unit support numbers, more commerce coming in from relatively uncorrupted towns). You may want to micromanage a bit more than normal. For instance, a city that produces between 5 and 9 shields/turn is going to build a warrior in 2 turns. Therefore, if you have a city that produces 7 shields/turn, but you can drop it to 5 or 6 in exchange for an extra commerce or two, do it. That extra gpt will pay off.

4) Your GA. Don't build more GSs in your GA. Build horsemen. The GSs are shock troops for the ancient age. After that they lose much of their edge, and as you've noted their upgrade path sucks. Usually, my GS force is either dead or elite* by the time my ancient wars wind down.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Hehn. Well, thanks for the advice. I've already connected iron as I had previously built about 30 warriors without doing simple math and realizing how freaking expensive an upgrade would be. In this game, I softpedaled money and kept up with tech (I have lots and lots of rivers), so I figured I'd build what GS I need from scratch. Probably not the right approach, but then again, with only the Germans left, this will give me the opportunity to try out a "you're isolated on this one-luxury island and you're militaristic and religious" game. That'll give me the opportunity to see if I can rock an overseas invasion - a challenge I've never met successfully, partially because I've never needed to.

None of my overseas competitors seem too advanced - only the oracle has been built, I believe. I've got the GL and the GL both under my belt most likely.

Doubtless, another (non-Celts specific) thread will emerge soon, asking for advice re: isolation and overseas conquests.

Next time I play the Celts, I will follow your advice, though...

[UnOrthOdOx]

I see Arrian beet me to the punch here.

I played a series of Celtic games a while back testing them out as well.

I agree that 10-15 is probably a max you should shoot for above Monarch. Even with a relative small number of GS, you can deal enough death and destruction while utilizing your GA to make a nice transition into knights, and onto REAL conquest.

[Arrian]

Doubtless, another (non-Celts specific) thread will emerge soon, asking for advice re: isolation and overseas conquests.

First thought that comes to mind: avoidance of chivalry (impossible w/the GL, though) for a horseman -> cavalry mass upgrade. This allows a nation that has spent the entire game building to suddenly field a huge number of cavalry (size 12 medieval cities building horsemen = lots of horsemen, fast).

I usually invade with about 1 musket for every 3-4 Cav I bring. They serve as stack defense in the beginning, and city defense as I capture cities.

I will typically pick on some weak targets first if possible, to grab luxuries so I can keep my people happy through a real war.

If you can take advantage of AI-AI wars by slipping cities in gaps in cultural borders to snag luxuries (or resources, should you need them), DO IT. Just be sure to defend those cities. Don't build them, stick 1 defender in them, and forget. They each should get walls, barracks, harbor, temple, 3-4 defenders, and some attack troops. They make great staging points for future invasions, so they have double value.

EDIT: In order to take proper advantage of the gaps opened up by AI-AI wars, it is best to have a couple of ships loaded with settler + garrison waiting off the coast. It's not always easy to remember to have that all set up, and I too sometimes forget, concentrating on my own lands, but if you're not prepared, you may miss excellent opportunities to steal other people's resources/luxuries

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Oh - one other thing about the Celts & their UU: the Colossus, already one of my favorite wonders, makes even more sense to build. Since you don't have to devote many shields to prebuild a GS force (warriors), you surely can afford a 200 shield wonder that pumps your commerce (which, of course, is what you really need in this case).

[/Colossus plug]

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

It's doubtless too late for me to get the Colossus, but hopefully I'll be building the lighthouse. That'll let me find the other dang continents, wherever they are...

[Gufnork]

A sufficiently large continent means you can turn builder using your isolation as an advantage (democracy, minimal defense). That's my ideal scenario for me now that I'm working on beating deity on a standard map.