the Bible for playing to computer

[fanes7]

i always play in deity, huge map, 16 civs.

when i first played civ2 at 6 years ago, i played in very easy( i forgot the level name). After then, i alway played in deity.

when i first played civ3, i played in deity (used Aztc). Now i like to try every different civs.

The civ3 is very un-balance in the design of the creating GL. I can use 10 shield to build a warrior , after several winning the warrior can create a GL, The GL means unlimitted shield, even though it can only use once.

I very love this design, this make conquest have more important significance. A winning in war is not only give me the peace treat and gold and city and worker ... but also - THE MOST IMPORTANT THING - it can give me a choice to build anything i want.

So i even never build all wonders in civ2, but i build all in civ3, and even more, build all in one city .

Now i play " double your pleasure " in PTW, it have 51 more wonder, however, i build all of them as usual.

So THE EARLY YOU ATTACK , THE MORE YOU GET.

I always can creat my first GL in first 18 turns, this means I can build my first wonder( pyramid usually) before 3000 bc.

so i give your advice is : Do your best in making your warrior upgrade, try to get an elite in first 16 turns, let your worker build road out to make your leader back easy.

try to win every battle, when you can't attack to win it, just try to defend to win it, when you can't defend to win, you can move to attack in next turn.

At beginning of game, you can change the result of a battle by finding the field village, at midst you can change it by a remote attack (to enemy or road or mine etc.) . so if you want, you can win most of the battle ( almost 90%), you never need too more army to fight with 3 civs simultaneity.

at beginning, three or four warrior and one or two arrowers are enough to conquer a civ.

[Purple]

What size map do you play on? And how many opponents?

[vmxa1]

You always make all wonders at deity? I can not even do that at Emperor? You always can get a leader in 18 turns? I must be misunderstanding what you are saying.
Anyone that can make all wonders at deity would have to walk on water at the very least.
I was not able to follow the last paragraph about changing result, but that sounds a bit like cheating to me.

[Tassadar500]

Hmm I don't understand the last paragraph either? And how are you so good by the way? All wonders?

[vmxa1]

How is anyone that good? I know of many very strong players and I am not aware of any making this strong of a claim.

[Tassadar500]

Could Aeson even do it?

[Taian]

Now *that* would be an interesting AU course...build as many wonders as possible...captures don't count..only home-grown ones..

[Sheik]

I really can't beleive it until I see it. Let's see a save.

Please explain the last paragraph.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Taian
Now *that* would be an interesting AU course...build as many wonders as possible...captures don't count..only home-grown ones..

One of them called Ultimate Power was more or less just that. It was meant to see how much could be done given a very good start.

[Tall Stranger]

Originally posted by Sheik
I really can't beleive it until I see it. Let's see a save.

Please explain the last paragraph.

I agree, this is not possible. Let's do a bit of basic math here.

You claim to get all 7 ancient wonders every time, via Leaders. To do this without the Heroic Epic, you require 7 leaders. With Heroic Epic, you require 8, since you must have a victorious army to build the HE. (I'll assume you build the HE the old fashioned way, w/o a GL.)

I'll be kind and assume you build only veteran units, you're a militaristic civ and your promotions only come from fighting other civs (chance of promotion vs. barbarians is only half the chance against civs), thus:

Chance of promotion from veteran to elite: 1/4
Chance of GL from elite: 1/16 w/o HE, 1/12 with HE

Hence, on average, it will take you (7x16x4) or 448 successful battles to generate the 7 GLs needed to do this without the HE. With the HE, you will need an average of (8x12x4) or 384 successful battles.

Let's be kind and give you a 50/50 shot of winning a given battle. That means you'll need to fight (respectively) 896 or 768 battles. Simply put, there are nowhere near that many units in the game during the ancient era. This is especially true on Diety, since the ancient era does not last very long, given the rapid research of the AI and their extensive willingness to trade with one another.

There are only two reasonable ways the outcome you claim is possible: 1) you have used the editor to change the rules for promotion (don't even know if this is possible); or 2) you've turned off the "preserve random seed" option and are continuously replaying elite battles until you get lucky and generate a leader.

If it's 1), you need to tell us that. If it's 2), fine. You paid for the game, and if that's fun for you, knock yourself out. But please don't come here and talk about what you do as being a "strategy." It's a cheat.

[Mad Bomber]

The person in question is either a cheat or a liar in either case best ignored.

His first claim that he can build all7 ancient wonders (leaders generated or not) is absurd. His second that it only takes 4 warriors and a couple of archers to kill a civ (on diety, no less) is asinine.

I would ask for a saved game, but It would either be tainted through reloads or not able to be produced.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Tall Stranger
I agree, this is not possible. Let's do a bit of basic math here.

I read your post, but didn't redo your math -- nonetheless, I'm pretty sure that you've nailed a huge hole in fanes7's story.

And there's another:

Originally posted by fanes7
I always can creat my first GL in first 18 turns, this means I can build my first wonder( pyramid usually) before 3000 bc.

Though I recognize that writing in a second language is very difficult, fanes7 seems to have a good enough grasp on written english to take him/her at his (modified) word -- i.e., that he either always or often creates a GL during the 3000 BCs and uses that leader to build the Pyramids before 3000 BC.

3000 BC is turn 20 - so let's examine the timing required to generate a GL before then and then examine the liklihood of that happening either "always," "usually," or even "often." Some basics: (1) on a huge map, it will be extremely unlikely that the nearest enemy capitol will be closer than 10 tiles; (2) an industrious worker will take 2 turns to build a road on flat land -- non-industrious, 3 turns. If you buy into the 10-tile minimum, it will always be better to be the Aztecs (2-move warrior) instead of an industrious civ (1-move warrior) if the goal is earliest possible warfare, absent a pure path of hills, jungle, forest, or mountians or absent a start as Japan with a start location on horses. We'll content ourselves with an evaluation of the most player-advantaged situation: a 10-tile enemy, with a flatlands path, human playing the Aztecs, perfect knowledge of enemy locations.

Assume as the Aztecs that you build in the start location and have access to a two-shield tile at the start (game on forest or cow on plains, for example). Your first warrior will still take 3 turns (with shields from the city tile). Your road is not yet completed when the first warrior is built. Three turns to build plus 9 tiles to an attack position means at least 7 turns before an attack. Subsequent warriors may come in either 3 or 2 turns, but still require at least 6+ turns for an attack. Assume your first two warriors (they're regular - you haven't built a barracks) encounter enough barbs to get promoted to elite (obviously highly unlikely). At best, you are likely to have no more than a couple of elite warriors in a position to fight every turn before 3000 BC - even if successful each turn as an attacker and a defender, you've barely encountered enough battles to have a solid chance at GL generation. The timelines might be improved with an AI assualt force coming closer to your troops and eliminating some of the march to the enemy, but we're already pushing the envelope with good luck in the start-up circumstances.

Given the best of all circumstances described above (but nothing exceptional about RNG luck), it is very, very unlikely that you will have much luck generating a GL in the first 18 (or 20) turns. In the happy circumstance that you do generate a GL in this time frame (and this certainly does happen in rare occurences), you also need to have discovered Masonry to be able to build the Pyramids - you must either have found a civ (Americans, if playing with culturally-linked starts) that starts with it, traded for it very early (tough), or popped a hut and received it, to build the Pyramids.

Okay - enough with the hypotheticals. I don't know if fanes7 has a funky version of Civ (purchased in China) that alters some of the basic mechanics that I and Tall Stranger have described, has modded the game, or is otherwise just full of sh*t -- I do know that any claim to generate one's first Great Leader before 3000 BC on any other than an extremely unusual basis is absolute BS under standard rules -- this thread should die a quick death (and my post doesn't prolong its life since the thread currently sits atop the Strat Forum threads, owing to Poly's disasterous uptime record which is certainly driving away 'Poly regulars).

fanes7 - I think we all welcome new contributors and advice, and I agree that early aggression is a wonderful approach to breaking and winning the game; but posting absolute crap in a public forum only misleads the vast numbers of lurkers out there and doesn't contribute to a meaningful discussion about improving one's play.

Catt

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
His second that it only takes 4 warriors and a couple of archers to kill a civ (on diety, no less) is asinine.

You can take down a civ on deity with this number of units, I have done it with about that amount. You have to be very lucky and also to catch the most of the massive (12) number of warriors out and about. I rarely attempt this, but I have done it. You had better not fail or you will be starting a new game. I should add that was before PTW, so it could be harder.

[Harovan]

I can't help, but the whole thing sounds a bit I-iz-1337ish.

[Sheik]

Yes it does.

But I guess fanes7 isn't going to reply