Troubles with the Great Library

[realpolitic]

I don't build any early wonders and I win at Diety. I go 90% or 100% science or use 1 scientist. Buying the early techs(usually to the Ind. Age) is a cheaper way to go, than building early GWs (except with GLs)

[Paddy]

Originally posted by Dr. A. Cula


Tell me about it. I just hit Modern Age and got Rocketry, Computers and Fission the very next turn.

Forgot this: I'm at war with 4 civs right now. I was the 3rd to get to Motorized Transportation, and I think by now all my enemies have it. At least 2 of them have Oil and Aluminum, yet I'm the only one to field Tanks and Mech Infantry.

how did the battle turn out?

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

I've read quite a bit on 'Poly - by players whose opinions I value greatly - stating that the Pyramids are THE ancient wonder to have, and that the Great Library is hit-or-miss.

I have to confess, I don't see why... I find the GL always useful, often indispensible with so many damn expanionists scouting around. Especially if you lack a quick mover unit early in the game...

The Pyramids, on the other hand... well, I understand the use, but to win the Pyramids race, you have to start building pretty much off the bat, and shouldn't that time be spent building more cities?

Bear in mind, I'm always up against 15 opponents... I could see how fewer opponents would change things (less expanionists).

I'm wondering if anyone could comment, especially another huge map player.

[Dominae]

Practice tech-trading with the AI.

In most Emperor games I am able to keep myself "alive" in tech simply by researching a couple of expensive techs on a 40-turn pace, then trading these around for other techs and Gold. This works into the Medieval age, where I'm strong enough (after good expansion or some early war) to start researching myself at a reasonable pace.

With efficient trading you can more or less duplicate the Great Library's effect, without the cost in Shields.

Of course, in some games, you simply cannot get an "in" in the trading game, and then the Great Library becomes a very important Wonder. But this is definitely not standard.

Another related thought: do not be afraid to fall behind in tech momentarily. Many players feel that the game is lost if they are 4 or so techs behind. This is almost never the case. As long as your economy is growing and/or you are conquering your neighbors, you can afford not to have all those juicy techs. The only real worry in the tech race is if your weapons of war become obsolete (facing Cavalry when all you have is Medieval Infantry). Then you have to hope that your economy is top-notch and that you can put more units in the field. Another worry is not having Steam Power when your opponents get it, but this is not a huge deal as long as you still both have Cavalry.

As for the Pyramids, well, remember that its effects are much less "in your face" than the Great Library's. So I'll venture a guess and say that unless you eye is trained enough to notice the difference, you simply will not be able to tell what the Pyramids are doing for you. But trust me they're doing plenty! I have rarely lost a game (in SP...) where I've secure the Pyramids before 300AD.


Dominae

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Yes, I suppose it's that I often feel cut out of the trading loop... of course, polytheism always nets me something, and so would literature, but I'm loathe to trade it away... the other techs the expanionist-web (if it exists in a given game) generally out trades me.

But, practice makes perfect. I'm learning the wonders of ancient war, and am beginning to grok the power of coming up from behind. Still, for the time being at least, I'm standing by the GL as my favorite ancient wonder.

[Dominae]

What difficulty are you playing on?

Try a couple of games at Emperor, where building the Great Library is not so "easy". Then you'll have to make do without it and in doing so I think you will appreciate what I said above. Just like the first leap of depriving yourself from the Industrious trait, depriving yourself from the Great Library "crutch" is a learning exercise. The difference is that nothing beats Industrious, but some things beat the Pyramids.


Dominae

[vmxa1]

I have to go with Dom on this. I find that a quick assesment of my lands will tell me if I have any change at the GL. In most of my emperor games I will not give it a thought, it is just too expensive for me. If you have only one lux nearby or worse none, you can not grow a city to a large size right away. This means shields are not easy to get and wonders are a bugger.
Well you can grow the city up, but will not have many working without lux. I can usually count on one of the coastal wonders and maybe one other ancient wonder, so I need to be sure I get the one I go after. If wars breakout and I get a timely leader, that is another story.
Not to mention many of the Emp games put out on the boards are not going to be well situated for romps. They will have bad starting terrain or lack luxs or something nasty.

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
I've read quite a bit on 'Poly - by players whose opinions I value greatly - stating that the Pyramids are THE ancient wonder to have, and that the Great Library is hit-or-miss.

I have to confess, I don't see why... I find the GL always useful, often indispensible with so many damn expanionists scouting around. Especially if you lack a quick mover unit early in the game...

The Pyramids, on the other hand... well, I understand the use, but to win the Pyramids race, you have to start building pretty much off the bat, and shouldn't that time be spent building more cities?

Bear in mind, I'm always up against 15 opponents... I could see how fewer opponents would change things (less expanionists).

I'm wondering if anyone could comment, especially another huge map player.

If you want to put a crimp in the expansionists just up the barb levels, Any level above Roaming will make the Exapansionist trait almost worthless.

[Gufnork]

I've never beaten the AI to the pyramids once, never failed to beat them to the GL even on deity. I always set my second city up for building the pyramids, then switch to palace when someone builds it to later change it to Great Library.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Gufnork
I've never beaten the AI to the pyramids once, never failed to beat them to the GL even on deity. I always set my second city up for building the pyramids, then switch to palace when someone builds it to later change it to Great Library.

And how does this make you feel?

Sorry, just needed to slip into therapist mode for a second there.

I recently build the pyramids... I was able to (as Carthage) because I started near 3 hills with grapes on them, and plenty of mountains and flood plains. Still, this city could have produced settler after settler... as it was, my core was too small to maintain a war even against the Babylonians.

[Paddy]

Ok, so if it is too hard to attain the Pyramids or Great Library, are they worth chasing at these levels, as if you miss it you could lose a lot of shields...?

[Gufnork]

I never really count on getting the Pyramids. I just hope a weak neighbour will get it so I can get it "second hand". I mainly use Pyramids as a springboard towards the G.Lib that I know I'll get.

[Paddy]

So you like to capture the Pyramids... ok.