Tame the Beast or Smack the Superpower?

[Dominae]

Mountain Sage, interesting angle on this thread (the peaceful route). My question: if Yahweh were not in such a dominant position, which civ should he attack? Anything is doable if you're clearly ahead, but when the game is a little closer it's not as easy to just "decide" on peace or war...the game decides for you.

Oh, and good work on the Glossary thread! I'll pop in there with some more specific comments soon.

Cruddy, sometimes the only goal in conquering "useless" neighbors is to get that much closer to a Domination victory. If you've got the resources to take out neighbors and they're of no use to you alive, it's worth it to destroy them ASAP. That way you'll finish the game sooner (and will probably avoid the "late-game blues").


Dominae

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

MS, good to hear from you. But I'm afraid I followed Dominae's advice, and marched over the mountains south of Japan into the Iroquois Confederacy. Now I've taken the Western half of their empire, will soon be moving my capital to Salamanca, and intend on crossing the large mountain range in the middle of their empire and finishing them off.

Trust me, I'm still much more the builder type, although I'm becoming more war-oriented everyday... I would have rather cranked my tech... but for some reason (probably corruption) I just couldn't do it, even after trimming my armed forces.

What really spurred me on was when Utica defected and joined my empire. That really said to me "Don't worry about these Carthaginians, take on your giant neighbors to the South." And I did. It's a bloody war, but it'll net me tons of GLs, and leave Carthage quaking in their tiny boots.

I could not induce either Greece or Carthage to join in my crusade without giving them Chemistry. However, neither have attacked me. Both are merely "annoyed," especially Carthage I imagine.

[Carver]

I definently agree with Dominae et al that if you have an advantage over both your neighbors you should take on the larger one first. Even if Carthage keeps up technologically, I counted only 15 cities for them which means they simply don't have the production power to beat you on the battlefield.

What I wouldn't like about invading the Iroqs is the rough territory. It seems like it would be a long, drawn out war which I wouldn't like at this stage of the game. I would trim the Iroqs back by taking the 5 cities north of the Iroq's NE mountains. And take the cities on the western pennisula. Afterwards, I would knock out Carthage simply because they're taking up too much space.

Anyway, it sounds like you're making good progress against the Iroqs. What invasion path did you follow to take the western half of their empire? Building your capital in Salamanca is a very good plan. With all the mountains and grasslands down there you should get some monster production cities.

I may try to finish this game myself (now that you've put us in a winning position already ). What victory conditions are enabled and is it all standard rules?

[Carver]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
One other question: would you encourage I follow vmxa1's advice, and call Carthage to attack the Iroquois? I certainly wouldn't want to give the little bastards a tech for it... would you fear a sneak attack in the middle of the campaign by the Carths, or do you think this is just paranoia?

As duplicitous as the AIs are, I've never seen them do that. They will, however, sign peace deals with your common enemy well before the 20 turns are up, so I try not to pay anything up front for an alliance.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Carver, all victory conditions are enabled. Which leads me to ask, since a domination victory is very possible in this game: will that yield a higher score, or will dominating the world and winning a cultural victory accomplish that?

I had three thrusts: 1 towards the small city on the West Coast south of Toyama, one main thrust down from Shimonoseki, and a smaller force to take out Goiguen and the other city 'round there (can't remember all the names). I took out of the 5 cities and then my two thrusts converged, moving over the mountains to take out oil spring. It was easier than I thought; I too was dreading the mountains.

Once I took Oil Springs, taking the rest of the Western cities wasn't too hard. I also took another west coast town. NOTE: I refer to the West coast that continues from Japan's west coast, not the west coast of the Western peninsula.

I'm going to move my forces across the mountains and into the East. After that little push, I shouldn't have much difficulty finishing the Iroquois off. The most irritating task will be taking their island town and the small, near-antartic villages. I'm hoping to bring the Americans against the Iroquois soon, in hopes that the Iroquois will finish the Americans before I finish the Iroquois.

The Carthaginians beat me by 2 turns to Astronomy, but I'll probably generate a GL to build Copernicus' first, but if not, Carthage is next on my list after the Iroquois.

It would be interesting (to me at least) if you were to play the game following your route - invading the Western peninsula, shaving off the North, invading Carthage and then doing the rest of the Iroquois later. Give it a shot, we could compare games.

[Carver]

Originally posted by cumi
My experience is: if I make a world war once, I can finish it whenever I want or just simply ignore it. BUT, the all the other civs will fight for the next 1000 years. Maybe, the only thing to take care, that non of the civs should dominate the WW...

Just start the WW and leave them fight until end of the world....

In my second to last game I did just this. The Mongols and Japanese were #2 and #3. After the Mongols attacked me I signed an alliance with the Japanese against Mongols. Fortunately, Japan took the allaince very seriously and fought the Mongols from about the time I got replaceable parts until I had modern armor. The Mongols and Japan were forced into communism and were safely behind in tech.

After Japan had wiped out the Mongol navy and wasted all the Japanese attacking units on trying to launch an (unsuccesful) intercontinental invasion of Mongols, I invaded Japan with modern armor and completed the liberation in 4/5 turns. The Mongols (and a conquest win) soon followed.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

I did the exact same thing very early in the game I uploaded. The Greeks, Carthaginians, Romans, Egyptians, Japanese, Americans and I were all about tied. I attacked them all, stealing workers and techs and hindering progress, and set up the following wars:

Greeks vs. Carthaginians
Americans vs. Egyptians
Egyptians vs. Carthaginians
Japanese vs. Americans
Romans vs. Me
Japanese vs. Romans

...there may have been others I can't remember... oh yes, I briefly fought the Carthaginians.

The Greek-Carthaginian-Egyptian war lasted forever, as did the American-Egyptian war and the Japanese conquest of Rome. Thanks to the Greek-Carthaginian war in particular, I was able to ascend while the others were crippled. I was having a hard enough time fighting the Romans with horsemen, but in the end these other wars assured my ascendancy.

They were nerve-wracking though, as they were fought almost entirely in my territory! The Greek-Carthginian war gave me nightmares and made Carthage a power I thought had to be reckoned with. But, I was wrong... they're no challenge to me whatsoever, and the Japanese and Iroquois, were also were very scary, fell like wheat to my thresher.

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by Dominae
Mountain Sage, interesting angle on this thread (the peaceful route). My question: if Yahweh were not in such a dominant position, which civ should he attack? Anything is doable if you're clearly ahead, but when the game is a little closer it's not as easy to just "decide" on peace or war...the game decides for you.

Dominae

I would say to attack the Iroquois first for two reasons: they are further away and therefore is best to fight the longest war at the beginning and secondly you enjoy the advantage of cavalry.

Now you could be very sneaky: let Carthage attack the Iroqois (who cares if you give them a tech?) and see what happens for a few turns. Then you attack both of them when they're weakened, WITH YOUR KNIGHTS. If by the end you lose half of them, all the better, because you won't pay the upkeep and won't have the temptation to upgrade them. That's at least 50gp/turn saved, + the upgrading.
But it seems my advice came a bit too late...

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth

Trust me, I'm still much more the builder type, although I'm becoming more war-oriented everyday...

you and Arrian are the perfect BaE (Builder after Extermination)

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Mountain Sage

you and Arrian are the perfect BaE (Builder after Extermination)

Yes, well, that seems the most effective way to play the game. It would seem to make the Romans, French and Carthaginians the ideal civs for the huge world.

I hope I'm proved wrong as I move up difficulty levels though. Now, each civ, despite it's traits, is calling for the same pattern: REX, maximize production rather than food, conquer your neighbors, build stuff, win. It's fun at times, but at other times, just tedious.

Which leads me to ask: do you all think I'm ready to attack Carthage now? I mean right now, as in, this turn or next. I know I have enough troops to take Carthage itself, but I'm not sure about the other cities on my front.

Carthage has many wonders I want, and has made contact with the other civs. No Arrian's Deception for me! Now I just want to wipe these toads out ASAP so that I can switch to democracy and finally do the building I love so much. So, MS, Dominae, et al., take a look at this game if you have the time, and criticize away (I mean that):

[Theseus]

I like the WW approach... I want every AI civ at war with each other!! So in this case, I would ally with Iroqouis against Carthage, and then, 20 turns later, the reverse.

[Theseus]

I like the WW approach... I want every AI civ at war with each other!! So in this case, I would ally with Iroqouis against Carthage, and then, 20 turns later, the reverse.

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth


So, MS, Dominae, et al., take a look at this game if you have the time, and criticize away (I mean that):

I'll look over it during the week-end. As for Carthage, you have answered the question yourself...

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

How right you are, jeeves. In 2/3 more turns, Carthage will be toast, with one small city in the middle of the ocean. Just like the Iroquois. Quite irritating actually, I'd prefer to wipe them out entirely. So, now it's just mopping up operations, and then on to the other continent, wherever it is.

Now, hopefully, someone else will contribute a game we can all take a look at.

[Carver]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
...with one small city in the middle of the ocean. Just like the Iroquois. Quite irritating actually, I'd prefer to wipe them out entirely.

New Oil Springs?

I wound up warring with the Iroqs first, 1240ad. They declared war after I moved 40+ calvary into their territory with 3 turns left on an ROP.

I took the Iroq heartland and left them on the western penninsula. Then I invaded Carthage in 1480 and wiped them straight off the planet.

In the 1500s I wiped out Egypt, partly because they had one city next to the FP city which I thought should be producing for me.

In the 1600s I went to finish the Iroqs, mostly to get some GLs. I decided to just sign a peace treaty and leave them the one city.