The Industrial Age

[Dominae]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Does the AI perhaps regard the higher techs in the same Age (or perhaps just Radio) as having a higher base worth than lower ones that cost the same in beakers? This would mean you get a lot (in trade worth) more from your free tech, and sooner.

A while ago, alexman did an analysis of which techs the AI prefers. It's metric is based not only on cost, but on what units, improvements and abilities a tech provides (pretty obvious, right?). If the AI avoids Atomic Theory, it's not only because of its high cost but because of other factors as well, most probably that it does not do anything in and of itself.


Dominae

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Nakar Gabab
Also, Medicine is on the TOE track anyway. So if I had to modify your list in any way, I'd get Medicine before the Electricity/Replacable Parts part. If you're not in a game with too many Scientific civs, or just not too far behind, Medicine can be whored out in such a way as to nigh-bankrupt the AI at a critical early Industrial period, giving you lots of GPT and perhaps extra techs to fill in whatever Medieval stuff you didn't get (Free Artistry anyone?).

Why not just research the good techs (like Industrialization and Electricity) which help your empire directly, and use these as trade bait with the AI? The AI pays handsomly for these as well (at least as well as for Medicine), so there's not fear of falling behind. The whole idea behind not researching Medicine first even thought it's so important is that the AI is picks it up immediately after Nationalism. Meanwhile, you can actually do something useful with Railroads and Factories.


Dominae

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Theseus
I think, Dominae, you underplay two things:

1) Gaining a branch lead in research is extra powerful in the Industrial Age.

I agree with you here. The reason ToE is so powerful, IMO, is that you get a sound branch lead over the lower branch (Atomic Theory, Electronics, Radio), which you will serve you very well throughout the Industrial Age. Grabbing Radio while the AIs are on Steel is guaranteed investment in your future well-being.

2) Production power. Dear sweet god, this is when the payoff comes, especially if playing a commercial civ.

I agree with you here, too! My point about production was simply this: make sure you're not wasting too many Shields on projects. If you're producing a Infantry every two turns in a city that outputs 60 Shields per turn, you're losing 15 Shields per turn there! It's great to get your production as high as possible, but you also have to consider what you're going to do with all that power. If building a Coal Plant ends up wasting more Shields than anything, why build it?

Eventually, of course, to produce those expensive Tanks, you'll want your main cities to produce at least 50 Shields per turn, which typically involves a Factory-booster of some sort (Coal Plant, etc.). But blindly getting your production as high as possible very early in the Industrial Age may not be the most efficient path.

Well done, a Must Read.

Thanks!


Dominae

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Dominae


Why not just research the good techs (like Industrialization and Electricity) which help your empire directly, and use these as trade bait with the AI?

Dominae

Maybe I am alone on this, but I pretty much never trade any industrial age tech to the AI. They are all just to useful and I do not want to help them get to them.
Even if they are going to get them very soon anyway.
I will try to find something to trade when I get close to the ToE being built. I want to fill in those older techs I skip, Espionage, Demo, Printing press and the like.
I want to have as many techs as I can so the freebies are one that I can use and are expensive to build.
Beelining to Scientic and Elec for the wonders is a given.
If I am in a close tech race (Emp/Deity or some special games), otherwise I usually have time to grab Fac and Hospitals first. This lets me get a nice jump on my production and some of the other wonders I want.
I am not going to be able to prebuild or rush them all.
I will hopefully be ready for ToE and Hoover. The rest I will take my chances on.

[epics]

Dominae: Try not to have begun any research projets when you finish the Theory of Evolution. Once you secure this Wonder, the best techs to grab for free are Atomic Theory and Electronics.

How can I be sure that ToE give me those two techs? Is there a way to "show" what techs I want from the ToE?

[Nakar Gabab]

Originally posted by Dominae
Why not just research the good techs (like Industrialization and Electricity) which help your empire directly, and use these as trade bait with the AI? The AI pays handsomly for these as well (at least as well as for Medicine), so there's not fear of falling behind. The whole idea behind not researching Medicine first even thought it's so important is that the AI is picks it up immediately after Nationalism. Meanwhile, you can actually do something useful with Railroads and Factories.

Because, as VX notes, I don't usually give them ANY Industrial techs if I can help it. However, if I were going to sell 'em any one tech, it would either be Medicine or Electricity - and since Medicine does not put the AI closer to Replacable Parts and the ever-annoying Infantry, it's the most viable trade-bait.

I also find that the AI likes to shoot for Communism before it goes after Medicine. I could be wrong here, but that seems to be the way they go. You just tend not to notice if you skipped Nationalism because you can't see it available for trade. Communism ain't a bad tech to trade for either - the reduced war weariness of police stations is so-so, but the reduced corruption can help huge empires a LOT. However, it's not nearly as effective as Factories and Railroads, and not worth the research.

Soooooooooooooo, what can we do INSTEAD of research Nationalism and Communism early on? What tech could possibly give us a leg up on those optional but not worth researching techs, without giving the AI a major advantage, and put us a step closer to TOE at the same time? What tech indeed.

It does all depend. If the AI is crippled or behind, you will have to research Medicine yourself to get to TOE first. If the AI is quick, trading for Medicine means you are perilously close to losing the race to Scientific Method and, unless you are clever or lucky, the TOE. I still maintain that Medicine is there for a reason, and I believe that reason can be cleverly exploited if you take advantage of the fact that the AI will bleed cash for a tech that does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the Industrial and Modern Ages. In fact, if you rush or get TOE, you can basically sell the AI Medicine-Scientific Method-Atomic Theory, all COMPLETELY WORTHLESS techs (provided you built or will be able to build TOE first!), for techs that give you access to Stock Exchanges, Oil, MPPs, Police Stations, Spying, and potentially more. I like to think of this branch as "something for nothing." If you get the TOE *and* Hoover's, that's basically EXACTLY what it is from an economic standpoint. Four to six turns of research for no direct AI empowerment, tons of GPT, and techs that do something? Sign me up!

[Dominae]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Maybe I am alone on this, but I pretty much never trade any industrial age tech to the AI. They are all just to useful and I do not want to help them get to them.

Even though the techs in the Industrial Age are powerful, the insane advantage you get from being a tech broker is still present. The two techs I might be reticent to trade away too quickly are Steam Power and Replaceable Parts, but even then I'll trade them if the price is right.


Dominae

[Dominae]

Originally posted by epics
How can I be sure that ToE give me those two techs? Is there a way to "show" what techs I want from the ToE?

Have you ever built the ToE? The game lets you choose which techs you want, from the list of techs available for you to research. Since Atomic Theory and Electronics are directly after Scientific Method and have no other prerequisites, those are the standard two techs to pick.


Dominae

[Theseus]

Originally posted by Dominae
Even though the techs in the Industrial Age are powerful, the insane advantage you get from being a tech broker is still present. The two techs I might be reticent to trade away too quickly are Steam Power and Replaceable Parts, but even then I'll trade them if the price is right.
Dominae

I originally played like vxma and Nakar... NO WAY would I trade dangerous techs to the AI civs.

Now, I'll trade anything and everything, and additionally gift techs where appropriate (and yes, it still feels WEIRD to gift Rep Parts and Motor Trans!). I have since learned that the tech broker's benefit of simultaneously draining the AI civs' gold / research AND enriching my own gold / luxury coffers gives me much greater control of the metagame.

For instance, if there's a KAI on a distant continent that I can't "break" through trade, I will wait for all my trades with that civ to run out, declare war honorably, and use my tech lead to procure alliances with all the neigboring civs (this possibly in conjunction with a luxury capture naval expedition).

Fun and Machiavellian Games with AI Civs.

[Solomwi]

One small place I disagree, Dom, though I seem to be a minority of one on this. Assuming I have a tech lead (which is most games I've played), and after the naturally-first Steam Power, I jump for Industrialization to get my factories going, then it's a sort-of beeline for ToE. Usually, by the Industrial Age, I'm researching each tech at 4 turns with decent cash flow. Also, I do use looser city spacing from the start, but play exclusively on huge maps. These mean three things: my ToE prebuild needs 4 extra turns, getting hospitals is as important for production as getting factories and the AI is pounding away a little slower at Nationalism and/or Steam Power at about the same time. Therefore, my typical IE research path goes SP>Ind>Med>San>Ele>SciMet. And you're right, there is nothing more beautiful than pulling up the advisor when you discover SciMet, going to the city screen, switching to ToE and seeing one turn left.

Here's the part where I disagree, but not vehemently. I grab Atomic Theory, because it's so dang expensive, and Replaceable Parts, then research Electronics, because the AI is lagging enough that I've assured myself of the Hoover Dam anyway, and that's 4 or 5 more turns that I have full speed workers. Normally, that would just be nice, but I'm getting my rail network up, making it crucial, especially if I'm at war. It also gives me a jump on getting units upgraded, locating rubber and determining if I need to go to war to secure or deny some. It just seems to me each new resource has the potential to completely change the game, more than anything else, which leads me to jump for a new resource tech above most all others. Of course, this all may be a function of me being too much of a wuss to play the higher levels, too .

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Theseus

For instance, if there's a KAI on a distant continent that I can't "break" through trade, I will wait for all my trades with that civ to run out, declare war honorably, and use my tech lead to procure alliances with all the neigboring civs (this possibly in conjunction with a luxury capture naval expedition).

I am aware of the possiblity and the benefits of those types of trades and if the conditions are correct I will trade some techs, usually just before the ToE is finished.
Never traded Rep Parts, Steam or Motorized though.

Anyway you can usually make a deal with the the other civs to gang up on the killer at no great cost. Often I will give them lux and they will jump on it.
The problem is that those civs are probably not going to have much of an impact on the killer. I may give them cash to build more units as well. They are just as likely to help the killer by getting slaughtered. Yhis give the killer more promotions and they get to annex cities.
I join up with them if they are far away or not reachable by me. If they are between the killer and me I may prefer to let them join the killer so I can sluaghter them and get the cities. It depends, if they have RR I do not want the killer to be able to use them, so I do not want them to ally with the killer. So many considerations.

[Theseus]

Yep, nothing worse than seeing my Machiavellian plans burned to ashes, and the KAI just getting bigger and badder.

[Catt]

Nice guide to a less-often discussed age.

With a solid tech lead (2 - 3 techs), I'll go SP, Elec, RP, Industrialization, Medicine, Scientific Method.

With a small lead / parity, I'll tend to skip Industrialization -- still nab RP early but then beeline for ToE.

When behind, it's a somewhat nervous trip straight to ToE, perhaps with a stop off at RP if pre-builds allow.

In all but the most unusual circumstances though, it is SP first and bypass entirely Nationalism.

I sense that I tend to underprioritize Industrialization compared to others. If I need to furiously build units, I am unlikely to slip too many factory builds into the queue; and if I'm not at war, I generally don't have a lot of pressing improvements to build (I tend to have universities up and running in most cities that deserve one before I get to Industrialization). More precisely: (1) I'll get factories up as soon as convenient; (2) if I'm at war, I want RP as soon as possible; (3) if I'm at war and it's at all dicey, I am unlikely to build too many factories instead of units, so I'll delay factories for RP and then ToE if the race is close; (4) if I'm not at war, I'll want factories primarily for assistance with hospitals and then stock exchanges -- so I can delay it. I like to get Universal Suffrage just to have it, but I don't find it a terribly helpful wonder -- the research that Bamspeedy and DaveMcW recently did indicates that US only makes one WW citizen per city content -- nothing more than one tick on the luxury slider.

I have experimented a bit with prioritizing Sanitation early -- too soon to tell how valuable it is, but the productivity/ income boost of RRs and hospitals is impressive. With an AI that doesn't value ToE nearly enough, stopping off at hospitals early seems to offer real value in certain situations.

Catt

[Cruddy]

Great thread Dominae!

All I would add is that I generally have games undecided in the IA at the higer difficulty levels on larger maps.

Oh yes, and if playing a scientific Civ I will often trade to get the last necessary tech (Radio or Flight?) so that I can have another free tech when entering Modern Age.

I can't really call this a tip. If I am forced to do this it's a sign I'm not doing very well, because tanks V infantry have better chances than MA V Mech Inf.

[GarP2]

quote:
Originally posted by epics
How can I be sure that ToE give me those two techs? Is there a way to "show" what techs I want from the ToE?

Quote from Dominae:
Have you ever built the ToE? The game lets you choose which techs you want, from the list of techs available for you to research. Since Atomic Theory and Electronics are directly after Scientific Method and have no other prerequisites, those are the standard two techs to pick.

(I still havent figured out how to quote)
I too was under the impresson that the computer picked the two techs that you got upon completing ToE. Was that true earlier but changed in a patch or in PTW? Because when it happened to me, I just quit trying for ToE because I skip so many previous techs. I played the original unpatched Civ3 til I bought and loaded PTW.

Thanks, that makes a big difference.
GarP2