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Successful Archer Rush: Can You Lose Afterward?

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  • Successful Archer Rush: Can You Lose Afterward?

    Howdy,

    The recent poll on your favorite standard units got me thinking. Nor Me and I both voted for the Archer as the "best" standard unit, simply because it wins games. My question is therefore:

    If you successfully Archer rush a neighbor, is your game "in the bag", so to speak?

    I would say yes. In recent (and maybe distant) memory, I cannot think of a game where I was successful in Archer-rushing my neighbor, but was forced to quit later on when obviously beaten. It seems to me like if you can "win the battle" early, you've also "won the war".

    Note that I'm not saying Archer-rushes are always easy, nor are they always successful! There are many reasons why an Archer-rush is a bad idea, and why it would fail. For instance, Archer-rushes on Deity are pretty darn hard. Or, sometimes your neighbor is just too far for Archers to be really effective (although I've found that that is sometimes an advantage, as the AI's counter-attack is weaker).

    So, my conclusion is that "rushes", like in almost any other war game (RTS, FPS, whatever) are really good in Civ3 too. Here are some reasons why I think this phenomenon is present in SP:

    1. The AI is predictable in its defenses, and further its build queues. On Emperor, you can pretty much guess how many units an AI will muster to counter your Archer rush, and plan in consequence. Further, the AI, after a little expansion, will typically dedicate their best city to Wonder construction, regardless of military situation. What all this means is that you can incorporate an Archer rush into your gameplan without sacrificing too much on growth, because you know how many Archers you'll need. Against a human opponent, you need to sacrifice growth for conquest, which puts you behind the other more peaceful civs.

    2. You get free techs from early conquest. People complain that you do not get a free tech when you conquer cities in Civ3. Big deal. What you get instead is all the civ's techs when you batter them down enough. The AI keeps on researching even if its being conquered, so you usually get a nice lump of techs for free. This is good because you do not have to trade for them with other civs, taking money and techs out of their pockets. One way to look at it is that you're translating 100-120 Shields (5-6 Archers) into (at least) 300+ Beakers. That's not a bad deal, considering that it's a "side effect" of conquest.

    3. More room for expansion becomes available, in comparison to the AI civs. The ultimate point of Archer rushes is to claim more land for yourself. Notice that AI is coded to go to war to claim more land too. Where there is a discrepancy is when the AI chooses to claim more land militarily, in comparison to humans. The human player has the option (through Archer-rushes) to double or more his or her available land almost 50 or so turns before the AI gets the same idea. The Archer-rush is not a warmonger tactic, it's a builder one! Want a large, productive empire? Just take out your nearest neighbor and ride your land advantage to victory! True, the AI does sometimes "rush" early on, but these attempts lack focus, and therefore never achieve the same effect as possible for a human player. But consider KAI theory: those AIs which will emerge into killers are those which are able to take out their neighbors quickly. My toughest AI opponents have been those that have successfully (through favorable RNG outcomes) Archer-rushed their neighbor.

    4. Alluded to above: the cost of conquest with Archer rushes is far far less than the relative cost of conquest at a later stage in the game. A strike force of five Archers takes almost no time to produce, yet alters the game the most. Twenty Cavalry can do some serious harm too, but nothing compared to five Archers. Since an Archer rush is so easy to set up and often so successful, the "cost of warfare" with it is much lower than at later stages.

    5. (I actually forgot this one the first time around!) AIs are too easy to "control". Thus, when you leave your flanks or rear open by Archer-rusing in one direction, you need not fear because you can typically appease the other AIs long enough for you to complete your Archer rush (you can even bring them in on the action, if you sign an Alliance). In the games where I Archer-rush, my home cities are essentially undefended, while all my forces (Warriors and all) are wreaking havoc on my target. The other AIs, unlike human opponents, do not realise that I'm completely open, and would lose horribly if they just walked in and claimed my cities.

    My advice is therefore simple: if you want to improve your game, master the Archer rush. You'll get to know when to use it, and when you do you will usually win. I consider this a "flaw" in the game, but such flaws always exist. Luckily this flaw is not emplyable in MP, where the defender can adapt to thwart the rusher's plans.


    Dominae
    Last edited by Dominae; May 20, 2003, 12:05.
    And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

  • #2
    Hmm. I don't often archer rush, at least not in the sense that I think you mean: building a bunch of archers and taking a big bite out of a neighbor.

    I do, however, use archers to fight early wars, and actually kinda like it if the AI is relatively far away. I find this tends to work to my advantage. With a few archers & maybe a spearman, I can destroy all incoming AI forces while hardly skipping a beat in my REXing. Meanwhile, the AI continues to send out its standard settler teams (spearman/settler) during the "war" and I can pick them off, greatly hampering their expansion while helping mine.

    This tends to work because the AI will send out archers in ones & twos without spearman protection. I can sit on a hill or mountain with several archers and nail their archers piecemeal. 2 attack vs. 1 defense, over and over.

    I did this to great effect in my current game as Germany against the Russians, French and England. I took down 5 settler teams, captured 1 worker, gained another 2 in one of the peace deals, and generated 2 great leaders. The shield investment on my part was pretty low (though by the end of those little skirmishes, I had probably invested what you would invest in an early archer rush... I would guess that I built 8-10 archers total).

    I've fought early archer wars on Emperor as well, and it seemed to just mean a few more archers coming at me.

    -Arrian
    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Arrian
      Hmm. I don't often archer rush, at least not in the sense that I think you mean: building a bunch of archers and taking a big bite out of a neighbor.
      Arrian, what you describe is just a prelude to actually conquering your neighbor. A successful Archer rush will begin with either a Settler bop or an attack on a city. Then, you fortify your forces in defensible terrain and wait for the AIs counter-attack (it always comes). Once you've dealt with this (easy, because the AI does not have enough Roads yet and throws its Archers into the open), its an simple matter to finish off the job by taking all their cities. This last step is "simple" because the AI has sent everything it has to attack you; all that is left maximum a Spearmen or Warrior defending each city.

      A subtle point is timing of the AIs construction of Archers for counter-attack: by noting when a city pushes out an Archer, you can calculate how long you have before another is built (modified by difficulty and land availalbe). If you do this well, there is rarely a need to bring any Spearmen along, since you'll never be defending.


      Dominae
      And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

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      • #4
        What you do in the ancient age will normally make you win or lose the game, and a successful AR is mostly a good start. However, I can think of some scenarios where the AR is not a game winner.

        1) You share a remote continent with one more tribe. While the AR brings you forward, you are still on a remote island and have to do all the research on your own. The other AIs may be way ahead when you eventually make contact.

        2) The AR might screw your reputation so that the whole world gangs up on you later. It put more strain on your diplomatic skills.
        So get your Naomi Klein books and move it or I'll seriously bash your faces in! - Supercitizen to stupid students
        Be kind to the nerdiest guy in school. He will be your boss when you've grown up!

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        • #5
          Good point. I never do that, btw (try to time the AIs archer production). Though it's kinda obvious if a small city just sent an archer out last turn.

          I typically don't "go for the kill" with archers because I find that early in the game I end up autorazing too many AI cities. EDIT: and as Olaf points out, killing them off or seriously crippling them early may result in more research for you. I'd rather have 2 shots at getting tech (if there are lots of other civs around, though, maybe not). If I feel I can make a real play at taking their capitol & then play "follow the palace" that's one thing. But like I said, I often don't bring that many archers to the party. I'm fishing for slaves & GLs and thinking about a swordsman/horseman conquest later.

          -Arrian
          grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

          The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

          Comment


          • #6
            Arrian, that's another way to do it. But I believe my point remains: if you exploit another civ in the way you describe, do you ever lose (forget UP for the moment)?

            My own strategy is to take out the civ as quickly as possible (sometimes I wait a bit if they're nearing completion of a Wonder). What this allows me to do is: 1) REX with imputiny and set up an economy that the AI cannot rival, 2) proceed to the another civ with my still-useful Archers. Concerning the second point, the longer you wait with Archers, the less useful they become (this is obvious). So, if you really want to get the best bang for you buck with them, it's best to use them to take out multiple opponents. In my recent China game, I eliminated France and Persia with Archers, and took out most of India before Horsemen came online.

            Olaf, I agree with your first point, but disagree with the second. Depending on the extent of your isolation, even a successful Archer rush may not put you over the top. But Reputation is not really a big deal. Just declare war, conquer their cities (never Raze) and you should not suffer any detrimental effects for the long run.


            Dominae
            And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

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            • #7
              I'm not arguing against your central premise, Dominae. I'm just offering my method of using archers for comparison.

              So yeah, I think your point remains.

              How do you deal with autorazing, btw? Do you follow the capitol? What if you approach a size 2 city (without culture) and it dropped to 1 due to poprush, do you withdraw?

              -Arrian
              grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

              The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

              Comment


              • #8
                An oscillating war is better on a civ far away.
                But if a civ is close enough, you gain a lot from capturing their cities early so I'd aim to take them out fast. It often only takes a small attack force to take their capital early if it's size 1 after building a settler.

                If I'm planning to build, taking out the civ in 1 war without razing any cities is obviously better for reputation,cities and land. It just means you have to wait 10 turns for most cities.

                I've never lost or even struggled after a successful archer rush. That might be due to never having a fairly successful archer rush on Deity though.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Arrian
                  How do you deal with autorazing, btw? Do you follow the capitol? What if you approach a size 2 city (without culture) and it dropped to 1 due to poprush, do you withdraw?
                  If I actually want the city, I won't autoraze it. That does mean always following the capital and waiting 10 turns. If they have a size 2 city, they'll usually pop-rush in the end (if you plan on taking/razing it this war) so forcing it is only a bad idea if you want to kill more archers (for possible elites/GLs).

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Arrian
                    I'm not arguing against your central premise, Dominae. I'm just offering my method of using archers for comparison.
                    I knew that, I was just trying to drive the point home for the other readers...

                    How do you deal with autorazing, btw? Do you follow the capitol? What if you approach a size 2 city (without culture) and it dropped to 1 due to poprush, do you withdraw?
                    If a city's time is up (i.e. I'm about to conquer it), auto-raze will not stop me. I've never felt that the later-game has been significantly tainted by an Archer-rush, Reputation-wise.


                    Dominae
                    And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

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                    • #11
                      Archer rushes will win you the game if they succeed, no doubt. IF they succeed.

                      But even if you have a good chance of succeeding (which is often), depending on the map, you might have better chances of achieving Ultimate Power (TM) if you just wait for horsemen/swordsmen instead. There's a lot to be said about gifting Monarchy/Republic to an AI for all his money, and then attacking without him being able to pop-rush (or even rush) units.

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                      • #12
                        There's a lot to be said about gifting Monarchy/Republic to an AI for all his money, and then attacking without him being able to pop-rush (or even rush) units.
                        If it's just you and them, I'd definitely agree. If there are lots of other AIs in contact with you & them, and they don't have the tech either, it's gonna get whored around, so it might not be worth it. If there are scientific civs around, and Monarchy helps them out of the ancient era, then you have feudalism getting out there, and that causes all sorts of trouble.

                        -Arrian
                        grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                        The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          alexman returns to the Strat Forum! And the crowd rejoices!




                          Dominae
                          And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

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                          • #14
                            And it was good.

                            -Arrian
                            grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                            The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Good thread, well put.

                              I have used very early Bab Bowmen rushes to good effect (put the game in the bag) but oddly never thought about doing the same with ordinary archers when playing some other civ. I instead wait for swordsmen. Those Bab Bowmen have been game busters a couple of times.

                              Umh, must try an archer rush, same attack as Bab Bowmen and same time period. Ooh, and archers don't trigger a despotic golden age.

                              A quick well executed archer war could often "put the game in the bag".

                              EDIT.
                              I did stuff up the first couple of games in which I tried this rush. Very bad idea for beginners to try this. Very good idea once you have the hang of the game.
                              Last edited by Egbert; May 20, 2003, 22:08.

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