AI trading Glitch/Exploit?

[dexters]

The olg glitch where the AI could pay out sums that would cripple it as well as gpt sums that it didn't have is well documented.

However, I've noticed through several games now that some gpt deals are rolled over (ie: not cancelled) after the 20 turns have experied. However, when you go to renegotiate them, they will refuse it.

It seems like the AI has forgotten about the deal and is only reminded of the expenditure when you bring it up. And similarly, your foreign advisor will tell you that "They will never accept that", even though they've been paying you for however many turns without cancelling you. I also commonly assume that comment to mean that the AI doesn't have the gpt income to pay.

This is common in most trades where 1 gpt can make the difference between your foreign advisor telling you "This is acceptable" and "They will never pay you that"

So in the meantime, what have they been doing to pony up the cash?

Comments? anyone know why this is?

[dexters]

Here is an attached image of a recent deal.

From the trade box, you'll see 40 gpt for incense and dyes. No numbers in brackets meaning the 20 turns are up. But England has not cancelled it.

It is also paying me 90 gpt for buying a tech from me.

Now, when I go to renegotiate it, I am turned down.

NOT SHOWN: My foreign advisor also tells me with a frown that they will never accept the deal which they have been accepting for several turns without cancellation.

[wilbill]

They've probably had to run at a defecit to pay you for a few turns. They won't do that, given a choice, so when you try to renegotiate, they refuse. I try to keep track of which civs have cash on hand so I can determine who to squeeze for more and who to leave as-is.

[dexters]

It's possible. I renegotiated the trade about 10 turns later and was able to get more gpt out of them.

One thing to note though, they have 0 gold in the bank. So I'm not sure where they are getting the gold from if they were running a deficit.

[vmxa1]

Many things could impact their finances. Other trades could expire, they could trade for income. Cities could improve their cash position with new workers or mines.
Some units could have been lost or disband and on and on.
A large empire has many means and options.

[Aeson]

Did the original deal have a Tech involved?

I think it has to do with the trigger for the AI renegotiating a deal not being set at the same level as for the AI accepting the deal in the first place. So if a deal becomes less valuable to the AI, it keeps with it until the 'renegotiate' level instead of the 'acceptable trade' level.

This happens a lot when a Tech is involved in a Resource trade. The AI are paying gpt for the Tech and Resources when they accept the trade, but the Tech comes off the books after 20 turns. If the renegotiation isn't triggered at that point, the AI will continue paying the gpt for the Resources, but if the player renegotiates, then the AI goes with the 'acceptable trade'.

[dexters]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Many things could impact their finances. Other trades could expire, they could trade for income. Cities could improve their cash position with new workers or mines.
Some units could have been lost or disband and on and on.
A large empire has many means and options.

You misunderstood. I'm sure an Empire has many means and options to pay, but I wonder how it can pay me when it had 0 in the bank, without doing some slider adjustments and or massive disbanding of units.
Anyways, I'll look into it some more.

Hopefully, someone can shed some light on it.

Did the original deal have a Tech involved?

Aeson, it is possible that it may have involved a tech. I can't remember, but I'll definately look into it next time I'm playing.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by dexters
I'm sure an Empire has many means and options to pay, but I wonder how it can pay me when it had 0 in the bank, without doing some slider adjustments and or massive disbanding of units.

Did the AI have 0 Gold in its Treasury, and are you sure? The AI is not willing to accept deficit spending when trading, but will do so to honor deals. So the AI could have been losing, say, 90gpt for a couple of turns until you renegotiated the deal, at which point it did not want to trade anymore (to avoid losing more Gold).

Like vmxa1 said, this can happen for many reasons. Let's say the AI you're trading with has a gpt deal with another civ, and this deal expires before your deal expires. To you, it may look like the AI is changing behaviours without a change in circumstances, but you do not have the whole picture. Specifically, the AI no longer has the gpt from the third party, and therefore cannot continue the trade with you. Most "weird" AI trading behaviours (other than those involving Attitude and Reputation) are due to the AIs refusal to employ deficit spending.


Dominae

[badams52]

There is a "glitch" in the AI trading. Sometimes he forgets and doesn't renegotiate deals even if he has no need for them anymore. Especially resources. And it's true that you can keep deals going for higher prices than the AI is willing to pay if you renegotiate. I don't know how the AI copes with the trade, but it's certain that he doesn't want to pay that much for said resource anymore.

eg. I research and see saltpeter and the AI I want to trade it to also knows about saltpeter. I look in his territory and it has saltpeter, but he hasn't hooked it up yet to his trade network. I dial him up, create a trade at oh say 32 gpt for saltpeter. And let the deal last for the whole game, even if the AI has later hooked up the saltpeter, he will not nullify the trade. If I were to renegotiate, the trade would "disappear." So I'm taking 32 gpt away from the AI that he could be using elsewhere.

I've mentioned this before, and I don't think it will be fixed.

[dexters]

Is there a reason why the AI doesn't renegotiate sometimes? Is the renegotiation trigger dependent on something? Perhaps the AI has limited computing cycles and randomly picks trade deals to re-evaluate each turn.

In my cause the AI would have rejected the deal had I renegotiated them, but about 10 turns later, it gladly paid more when I tried to renegotiate again.

So it is likely that this problem may be more common than we think and we just miss it sometimes.

Did the AI have 0 Gold in its Treasury, and are you sure? The AI is not willing to accept deficit spending when trading, but will do so to honor deals. So the AI could have been losing, say, 90gpt for a couple of turns until you renegotiated the deal, at which point it did not want to trade anymore (to avoid losing more Gold).

I am absolutely sure on this point. After the comments on this board suggesting they may be spending a deficit, I checked Elizabeth's gold in the diplomatic screen. It was 0.

[Catt]

The forum search function isn't cooperating. I posted a similar query some time ago and alexman provided a convincing answer though I can't for the life of me remember the full contours of the answer. I think it centered on the view that there might be a "randomness" factor in an AI's decision to renegotiate deals or something similar to what Aeson posted. Maybe alexman can remember his theory.

Catt

[badams52]

Did Alexman's theory explain why the AI will pay 32+ gpt for something he doesn't need anymore?

Originally posted by dexters
In my cause the AI would have rejected the deal had I renegotiated them, but about 10 turns later, it gladly paid more when I tried to renegotiate again.

In this case, I doubt it was a "glitch." This is most likely due to

a) the price for the deal increased
b) the AI got some more gold freed up when another gpt turn deal with another AI ended (as stated before)
c) if the AI doesn't have enough gpt/tech/gold to give you the "fair" market value, he will usually offer all he has. If he has more resources later, he will offer the full value.
d) a combination of the above

If you continue to change the price, it's easy to see the current maximum available gpt from the AI. Keep upping the amount till you get "he would be insulted by this deal" from your advisor. If you then decrease the offer by 1gpt and your advisor says "this deal would be acceptable." Then the AI currently only has that amount of gpt available for any deals. This number will change from turn to turn as his a) cities grow, b) other gpt's end, c) he sells a tech for gpt, etc.

Personally, when I'm way ahead of the other AI, I like to "max out" what I can offer him to see exactly what he has available for me to exploit. I may offer sanitation, nationalism, steam engine, wines, incense, iron, saltpeter, and my world map, just to see what his maximum trade to me could be. Then I start taking out things to see just how little I need to give to him to get the maximum from his gpt reserves. I'm sure many others employ similar tactics.

[dexters]

I'm aware of the Trade advisor signal to find out just how much gpt the AI has.

The glitch/exploit I'm referring to is the fact that the AI didn't renegotiate during the turns it wasn't willing to pay for the luxuries at that price. The price it WAS WILLING to pay was probably in the 30 gpt range. So the differential might have only been 5 to 15 gpt.

The fact that it agreed to the same deal at a higher gpt later on is somewhat of an aside. I'm more concerned about how the AI is paying for it during the turns where it couldn't or wouldn't pay the price.

Was it selling off improvements? disbanding units? making money from thin air? adjusting its sliders?

[Dominae]

With no definite proof other than knowledge of how the rest of the game is designed, I doubt very much there is any randomness in AI trading.

If Lizzie really had 0 Gold in her Treasury and was running a deficit, you were effectively destroying one of her improvements every turn. Depending on what the trade was worth to her, this may have been a good deal for the AI.

I have noticed the glitch badams mentions. Personally I'm trying to figure out what the "Always Renegotiate Deals" option is supposed to do. Does it mean "always renegotiate deals when the AI remembers to, according to some fuzzy logic", or what?


Dominae

[dexters]

It probably toggles a pop up and renegotiates a deal every 20 turns.

But you know, not doing it every 20 turns is more natural. Sometimes, AI will keep trade around and when I go to renegotiate, I would be told the deal is still acceptable to them.

So there is some logic there. It is the odd cases where they keep deals around but it's not acceptable that I wonder about.

Perhaps the AI only does a quick check at the end of the 20 turns, and never again. This means if they think the deal is still ok at the end of turn 20, they may keep it. But situations change and at turn 25, when I remember to renegotiate, they may suddenly be unwilling to pay for it.