City Placement, meaningless?

[Theseus]

badams52, thus my interest in disposable towns... and, invevitably, ralphing.

Maximal use of good tiles followed by larger cities and minimization of corruption.

The exact pattern, I've come to think, is not important.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Theseus
Maximal use of good tiles followed by larger cities and minimization of corruption.

By the time you get to Sanitation, you've either conquered quite a bit of land, or are planning to in the very near future. Therefore the reduced Corruption due to number of cities is, I guess, not really that big of a difference if you've got 4-spacing or 3-spacing. You'll still be way over the OCN because of all the crap towns you'll be conquering. This is just a hunch, so I would like to see some tests done on this. But I'm not going to do any anytime soon!

So, assuming what I've said above is correct, all you're getting with the "camp and abandon" strategy (ralphing, let's say) is size 13+ cities in the late-game. We should figure out if these are really worth it.


Dominae

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Theseus
badams52, thus my interest in disposable towns... and, invevitably, ralphing.

Maximal use of good tiles followed by larger cities and minimization of corruption.

The exact pattern, I've come to think, is not important.

Ralphing is actually quite flexible even with hostile terrain around, the basic premise can be rather easily reproduced. You can basically make "ralphing patches" of ralphed-out cities separated by hostile terrain and even fit in a few cities in between.

How many times did I say ralph?

[badams52]

Once I finish my AU206, I'll beging to analyze ralphing more. I'm still in the industrial age and am disbanding the last 2 camps netting 6 workers each.

[Ephesos]

Okay, I've looked at your ideas on placement, and they all assume one thing: that the player is a bloodthirsty conqueror. What about peaceful games (just humor me here)?

My idea is that in a peaceful game, cities should be spread out so they don't overlap too much (say, never more than 3 squares on a side), and so they radiate out from your Palace-Forbidden Palace axis. It seems to work for me. As long as you devote time to building courthouses, you should be fine. Besides, I think the "ralphing" concept makes things too easy (I really don't use it very often).

[Nor Me]

Ephesos, you are right that close city placement will eventually hurt you as a builder (generally because waste slows improvement building meaning less tiles are affected by, say, universities.) OCP is fine if you can do well in the early game with it. In one game I replayed (AU204) a few times with different city spacing, Optimal City Placement worked best. I had similar luck (1st war gave a leader 3 times). But generally you fall behind at the beginning.

Originally posted by Ephesos
Besides, I think the "ralphing" concept makes things too easy (I really don't use it very often).

That is why an OCP+camp type placement would normally be better. Camps can buils settlers rather than military units and there is no real reason not to build libraries, marketplaces etc. early if you don't need the military. If I have a lot of cities, camps start being disbanded early. It does sometimes make sense to have 12 tile holes in your empire in the middle ages but only near the Palace and FP or between them if they're close. Of course if you want a challenge try 10 spacing.

[badams52]

Originally posted by Ephesos
My idea is that in a peaceful game, cities should be spread out so they don't overlap too much (say, never more than 3 squares on a side), and so they radiate out from your Palace-Forbidden Palace axis. It seems to work for me. As long as you devote time to building courthouses, you should be fine. Besides, I think the "ralphing" concept makes things too easy (I really don't use it very often).

Peaceful or warlike the reason for close spacing and the greatness of it is the same: you work more tiles given the same amount of land during the ancient and middle ages when games are won and lost. Ralphing just allows your cities to get much bigger by disbanding cities that don't fit the OCP format when your tech allows you to work all the tiles within a city's radius. So my theory only really kicks in until you've reached the industrial era and have sanitation at had to make your OCP cities grow.

And as for Ralphing, or creating rings of camps around your OCP cities, I think it is quite a powerful strategy, but by the time you get to the industrial age, you've probably already won the game if your other strategy is sound, so my feeling is that whichever city placement scheme you use, by the time the industrial era rolls around, it's moot and you should have the game well in hand.

Persoanlly, I would be more inclined to use 4-tile just out of preference. Ralphing takes too much micromanagement of cities for my tastes. I like to let the city manager decide which tiles to use.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Ephesos
Okay, I've looked at your ideas on placement, and they all assume one thing: that the player is a bloodthirsty conqueror. What about peaceful games (just humor me here)?

Peace? what the hell is that?

C'mon people, stop smoking and let out your stress warmongering!!!

My idea is that in a peaceful game, cities should be spread out so they don't overlap too much (say, never more than 3 squares on a side), and so they radiate out from your Palace-Forbidden Palace axis. It seems to work for me. As long as you devote time to building courthouses, you should be fine. Besides, I think the "ralphing" concept makes things too easy (I really don't use it very often).

Agreed. Just let's see how long your neighbors like your peaceful attitude...

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by badams52

Persoanlly, I would be more inclined to use 4-tile just out of preference. Ralphing takes too much micromanagement of cities for my tastes. I like to let the city manager decide which tiles to use.

Camp cities, whether using Ralphing or any other technique does not overburden you. You only build barracks and military units, usually of the same tipe for a long time.

[badams52]

Originally posted by Master Zen

Camp cities, whether using Ralphing or any other technique does not overburden you. You only build barracks and military units, usually of the same tipe for a long time.

I'm talking about management of cities in terms of deciding which tiles get worked. I usually let my city manager decide so that I don't have to worry about rioting and unrest as my cities grow. Building in those cities isn't my gripe. For me, the less micro management, the better.

[Bamspeedy]

Originally posted by Ephesos
Okay, I've looked at your ideas on placement, and they all assume one thing: that the player is a bloodthirsty conqueror. What about peaceful games (just humor me here)?

Try a culture victory.
If you have 100 cities and you pop-rush a temple, or library (or both) in every one of those cities.....

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by Master Zen


Peace? what the hell is that?

C'mon people, stop smoking and let out your stress warmongering!!!

Agreed. Just let's see how long your neighbors like your peaceful attitude...

Ok folks,

This time you really made me

I'll post a nice little game save this Saturday night (GMT time) about city placement and 'The Virtues of Being a Peacenik' and I hope it will teach you a lesson or two

[bongo]

Jugding by your 'emperor arcipalego' gamesave you'll easily out-peace the rest of us

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Mountain Sage

Ok folks,

This time you really made me

I'll post a nice little game save this Saturday night (GMT time) about city placement and 'The Virtues of Being a Peacenik' and I hope it will teach you a lesson or two

Ok, I'll post "Starting a world war all by yourself and living to tell about it".

[Mountain Sage]

Here is my screenshot about my military from 950 BC to 990 AD.

Why did I keep these units?
Spearmen 1 and 2 : no. 1 for 14 July parades (odd years), no. 2 for even years.
Galley: it's Joan personal fishing vessel (sharks, marlin, kraken...). Quote from Joan ' As long as I float in my milk baths my caravel shall float on our waters'

Why no modern navy? Quote 'Steel is better around some body parts that on a floating coffin'.
Why no planes? Quote ' What goes up, must come down'. Now you know...