Emperor Level--It's driving me nuts

[Wizard55]

First of all I thank everyone for the info.

SO, the concensus here is to beat the crap out of everyone to win on a tiny map. To play on a Standard to huge map is the only way to win culture victory.

My last game was: Tiny map,
Me-Ottomans AI Civs- Persia, Aztecs, Egypt
I was ahead in land area and population.
My culture was even with Persia, ahead of the other two civs.
I have the Pyramids, Sistine Chapel, Great Lighthouse,
Sun Tzu's Aow

I was stronger militarily than Aztecs and Egypt. Equal in strength with Persia. It is 1060 AD Persia is Gracious with me, Aztecs are polite, Egypt hates my guts. Egypt declares war on me because I won't give them 50 gold and World Map.

I get an alliance with Persia and together we wipe out Egypt, I taking 3 cities, Persia taking 5 cities. Persia is still Gracious.
5 turns later our RoP runs out and Persia declares war on me for no reason I can thimk of. I give gems to the Aztecs they become Gracious, but will not help me fight the persians.
8 turns later our Rop with Atecs is over and they join Persia to wipe me out. it really sucked. I wish I knew what caused this.

My hat goes off to those who can beat Emperor!!!!

one more thing:

Quote:Originally posted by Alexman
See Sir Ralph's archer rush thread for a timeline. Follow up the archers with swordsmen/horsemen. You can easily win before the ADs come along, giving you a huge score.

Where can I find this?


Thanks for listening

[ducki]

Check the "Must Read" thread at the top of the forum...
In it is a link to "Timeline for Ultra-early Acher Rush" or something similar.

Actually, all of that thread is good stuff, if mildly dated.

[Dominae]

Wizard55, try not to listen to all these warmongers; if you want to beat Emperor culturally on a Tiny map, go for it! I see no reason why you should not be able to succeed..

Of course, under the given settings, it is probably easier to win by military force (hence all the comments thus far). But if you're trying to improve your game instead of just winning, the things that will help you win militarily will probably help you win peacefully as well.

What I'm saying is that there is more than one way to beat Emperor Civ3, on any map setting. Peaceful games are tougher, but possible.

This said, I suggest you pick the Chinese, chop some trees to build fast Archers, and got a-hunting. There will be plenty of time for peace later!


Dominae

[Mattaba]

I have one thing to add on the tips above, an early FP is a MUST on Emperor.

[joncnunn]

Merely being behind in tech doesn't mean you've lost on Emperor level.

In my current game, I only had half the ancient era techs when the AIs were all in the middle ages that turned out to be on a pangena map and come back to take a 2 tech lead going into the Industrial era. I anticipate getting a 1/4th era tech lead over the remaining AI by the time I win.

The keys to my come back were:

1. Taking advantage of the combined Aztec - Russia war vs Greece by buying all remaining Ancient Era techs + their WM for all 23 GPT (that was all my income)+ about 30 gold when Greece was down to Athens two turns before the Aztecs took it, canceling my debt.

2. Completion of the FP in the most suitable location. (Always is on Emperor.) In this case, my FP was greatly speeded up from triguring of my GA via wonder combo.

3. The subsequent Aztec - Russian war; largely brought on because Russia broke their alliance to sign a peace treay with Greece one turn before the Aztecs took Athens. This allowed me to buy tech from one for GPT and offset the costs selling to the other side for cold, hard cash. Evenually the Aztecs won, but at the cost of negleating their economy.

4. Flipping off 2 cities originaly built by Russia but captured by the Aztecs during their war. Sure, I had to abandon those cities during my first war with the Aztecs, but I was able to refound them in similar locations after the war, and in my second war, held the line by killing their Longbowmen with Calvary attacks within my Cultural boundary. This also produced a Great Leader.

[Chemical Ollie]

I do not think winning Emperor is a matter of map size, rather luck with the starting position and of course your skills.

I once won regent level as early as 2700 BC on a minimal map by sending 4 archers to enemy land, but that is not what Civ3 is all about. Still I got 14400 score, so the scoring system sucks. I'm more proud of the Emperor level wins I got at 6000 score in 1950 AD after ages of balanced playing.

[HolyWarrior]

OK, so how do you keep the AI from dogpiling you when you're way behind in tech?

I had one horrible game on Regent where I was on a peninsula, cut off from the main continent by mountains--and NO iron. I tried to take some by force, then the AI dogpiled me and it was game over.
So how do you do it?

[Dominae]

HolyWarrior, if you're way behind in tech, the best thing to do (in my experience) is lay low and try to get some favorable trades with the less advanced civs.

Unless your lands are truly horrible (and even then...), you should be able to keep moving in the tech tree. Focus on those techs that bring things that have a long shelf-life: The Republic, Industrialization, Replaceable Parts.

Your main advantage against the AI is that it wastes a lot of time researching the weaker techs like Free Artistry and Espionage, while you can focus on the ones that will directly increase your power.

As you start catching up, try contacting the tech leaders to see if you can swing some nice deals. It just takes one sweet gpt deal with a big civ to put you back in the tech loop.

Eventually, through some nice trades and buildup of effective units (Cavalry, Infantry), you'll be in a position to compete. Maybe you will not be a tech leader right away, but as long as you're gaining strength eventually you will be.

Finally, do not discount the use of Spies. If you're worried about putting too much money into the enemy's pockets, Espionage is the way to go. Stealing techs safely often costs as much as the AI is asking for it (or more), but that money cannot be used by the other civ.


Dominae

[Theseus]

Ah, ahem, errr... I (sometimes) get myself into difficult, come-from-behind situations, where, uh, I may have a few little wars going on.

I haven't posted enough about it, but when I am well and truly screwed I've got an methodology using oscillating war, Machiavellian diplo, resource gifting, branch tech leads, etc., to get back into a position of geo-political parity and then power.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by HolyWarrior
OK, so how do you keep the AI from dogpiling you when you're way behind in tech?

I had one horrible game on Regent where I was on a peninsula, cut off from the main continent by mountains--and NO iron. I tried to take some by force, then the AI dogpiled me and it was game over.
So how do you do it?

The two most common reasons people fall way behind at Regent is 1) isolation (this means no contact and you do not get the boost from having many races that have learned a given tech, that would make it cheaper for you to learn and you are not traing techs. 2) lack of proper title use. This means not picking a proper site for the town in the first place and or not controlling workers to have them improve the correct tile with the proper improvement. It also means insuring that the ciizens are working the tile they should be and the city growing.
These are often the problem at Monarch and Emperor ad well, but other factors can come into play and it may be reasonable to be behind at Emp/deity at the early stage.
I will flat out state that with a good start location, you should not be far behind the AI for long at Regent. If you find that you are and you have a decent location, you should consider reading Crackers work on open moves.
Once you are behind, I agree with Dom, hunker down, get your cities in good shape and try to make contact and deals. If war comes to you, try to enlist some help. Pay what you must to get it. Even though they may not take an active roll in helping, they at least will not be jumping in on the other side. I love to get as many as I can in on the fight and see all my foes lose units to the war.

[AJ Corp. The FAIR]

Originally posted by Wizard55

I was stronger militarily than Aztecs and Egypt. Equal in strength with Persia. It is 1060 AD Persia is Gracious with me, Aztecs are polite, Egypt hates my guts. Egypt declares war on me because I won't give them 50 gold and World Map.

I get an alliance with Persia and together we wipe out Egypt, I taking 3 cities, Persia taking 5 cities. Persia is still Gracious.
5 turns later our RoP runs out and Persia declares war on me for no reason I can thimk of. I give gems to the Aztecs they become Gracious, but will not help me fight the persians.
8 turns later our Rop with Atecs is over and they join Persia to wipe me out. it really sucked. I wish I knew what caused this.

My hat goes off to those who can beat Emperor!!!!

Firts of all: YOU and only YOU should decide WHEN THE WAR STARTS (if given the option of course). When you're planning to attack weaker civs, plan your goals and build up the necessary military. I give in to small demands as 50 gold, even when they just ask it a couple of turns before my planned attack.

When war is progressing fine, like yours was, you shouldn't bother about the almost beaten/weakened civ anymore, but focus on the other civs that grew stronger, like Persia in your case.

ALWAYS consider that they might attack you, especially if you too grew too strong. ALWAYS have a defense plan for your empire. (good road network, immediate respons to his troop movements, perhaps leaving some inner cities temporarily undefended)

Be Macchiavellistic: crush your opponents- the Egyptians - and plan your second opponent - the Persians. When they joined your attack, you could have been satisfied with ending the Egyptian war earlier, leaving it more to the Persians, whilst planning and building up your defense/attack forces toward them. Let the Persians take more cities --> you'll get them back

Beating emperor is not so hard . When I started playing one year ago, monarch soon seemed too easy, deity still is not 'realistic' due to the enormous bonuses for the AI. Do what I did my first games: immediately quitting when game progresses too badly, restarting, learning, avoiding same mistakes, and doing the right things in early phase. and later on)


AJ

[ThePlagueRat]

Re: Re: Re: Emperor Level--It's driving me nuts

Originally posted by laissez-faire

I don't play out the loss. You can just tell...

Please don't do that if you are gonna do a multiplayer game.

[laissez-faire]

Nice post, AJ. Funny I, too, was just about to post an anti-Persian rant.

It's the 13th century, and the wind blows the purple Iriquois flag from coast-to-coast on my tiny pangea map. This is my best Emporer game yet.

The Turks just declared war on me and a massive knight battle ensued. My superior tactics took his horses out and I began whittling away at Turkish cities one-by-one.

Soon, the map looked like this:

[laissez-faire]

A pivotal move, however, was the MPP-ROP I signed with the Persians at the beginning of the war. The only way I could get him to fight the Turks with me (because I thought I needed it) was to offer the ROP. Well by the time he got his army across my territory to the front, I had the Turks well in check and didn't need him anymore (Xerxes, that is).

The fourth and final civ in the game (America) attacks me from the third direction. I sign a peace treaty with the Ottomans and shift everything to the light blue northern horizon. America takes three or four cities as they were only defended by spearmen. My knights finally make it up there and I take a few back, plus one more of Lincoln's. Persia is moving in along side me for the kill and everything is just hunky-dory.

Until...

[laissez-faire]

I decided to play it out and see if I could end the war quickly (I mean I did have half the map). Three cities fell in one turn; two more in the next. My discouragement peaked in a swift Shift-Ctrl-Q when I saw the image below.

I’m quite frustrated. I can’t help but look at this game (and many others on Emporer) and ask would France have turned and attacked Britain in the middle of WWII? I guess once past Monarch, you have to prepare your empire for the absolute worst (and most far-fetched). ARRGH. Off to bed.